S6. E9: Sharon Guynup: Where Are They Now? The Fallen Stars of Tiger King
“During the time he was on the run, Stark did this Facebook live where he railed against the judges, officials, animal rights, activists. He claimed that together, all of these people had conspired to deny him the right to own and breed exotic animals. He taunted law enforcement. He waved a hand grenade in front of his phone. Keep in mind, he's driving down the highway during this hour-long Facebook live. And he was also saying that he was willing to die for what he believed in.”
– Sharon Guynup
Sharon Guynup is a journalist, author, and National Geographic Explorer. Her most recent article in National Geographic, 'Tiger King’ stars’ legal woes could transform cub-petting industry, focuses on the five stars of the hit docuseries, Tiger King, and what has happened to them since the show premiered last March.
Sharon has been on the podcast before: the last time was a couple of months before the pandemic and before Tiger Kingtook over the world. She and her partner, photographer Steve Winter, had spent two years investigating tigers in the United States for National Geographic. The 30-page story, The Tiger Next Door, was published in December 2019.
It involves the criminal underworld, wildlife trafficking, murder, and thousands of captive tigers living sad, pathetic lives all over the U.S. America has a serious problem with captive wildlife, and what we’ve done to tigers is cruel, dangerous, and absolutely unnecessary.
Since then, and since Tiger King, much has changed, not only for tigers in the U.S. - but also for most of the stars of the show. The majority of them are either in court or prison, have had their animals seized, or are dealing with a combination of all three.
Sharon is a hero for tigers. She reported mostly on tigers in the wild for years, until 2016, when she investigated the famed Thai Tiger Temple. The investigation, published by National Geographic, revealed strong allegations of illegal wildlife trading, which led to Thai officials confiscating the 147 tigers living at the temple and shutting the operation down. From there, Sharon moved on to the tiger disaster in the U.S.
Every time the owner of a roadside zoo or a tiger petting attraction goes down, the future looks better for tigers - but it’s not over yet. There are ways to combat the crisis right now. The first is to not participate in any wildlife tourism - that includes selfies with wildlife or any type of handling of wild animals - and the second is to get behind and support The Big Cat Safety Act.
Read Article: ‘Tiger King’ stars’ legal woes could transform cub-petting industry
Read Article: Captive tigers in the U.S. outnumber those in the wild. It's a problem.
Read Article: Exclusive: Tiger Temple Accused of Supplying Black Market
Learn More About The Big Cat Safety Act
Visit Sharon’s Website
Follow Sharon on Twitter
Read Book: Tigers Are Forever, by Sharon Guynup and Steve Winter
All photographs by Steve Winter/National Geographic
Transcript:
Sharon: [00:00:15] During the time, he was on the run. Stark did a Facebook live video, where he railed against the judges, officials, and animal rights activists. He claimed that together all of these people had conspired to deny him the right to own and breed exotic animals. He taunted law enforcement. He waved a hand grenade in front of his phone. Keep in mind, he's driving down the highway during this hour long Facebook live. He was also saying that he was willing to die for what he believed in.
Elizabeth: [00:00:54] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz and this is Species Unite. For the months of May, June and July, Species Unite is celebrating plant-based eating with vegan nights. All that really means, as we would love for you to cook dinner for your friends or your family or your neighbor and make it vegan. On our website, we have downloadable ghost packs with recipes, tips, information to make your vegan night all the more fun and better. So, go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and download a host pack and you'll be entered to win one of six, two hundred and seventy five dollar vegan gift baskets that are filled with all sorts of incredible plant based products. This conversation is with Sharon Guynup. Sharon is a journalist and a National Geographic explorer. Her most recent article in National Geographic is about the five main characters of the documentary series The Tiger King and what has happened to them since the show premiered. Sharon's been on the podcast before. Last time she was here was a couple of months before the pandemic and before The Tiger King. She had just written a 30 page piece for National Geographic called the Tiger Next Door, which exposed the tiger problem in the U.S. since she was last here. A lot has gone down with tigers in this country, and especially with these guys from The Tiger King.
Elizabeth: [00:02:42] Sharon it's so good to see you in person after a very long pandemic. Thank you so much for being here.
Sharon: [00:02:49] Oh, thank you so much for having me here today. We have some interesting things to talk about.
Elizabeth: [00:02:54] A lot has happened since the last time. So, for people who did not hear Sharon's last episode, she wrote the Nat Geo story that came out in December 2019 called The Tiger Next Door. It really exposed the tiger industry in the United States, which is just mind blowing. Her story came out in December 2019. We met in January, so this was all right before the pandemic started, and The Tiger King kind of took over the world. So Sharon is back to talk about what's happened since The Tiger King, which is equally mind blowing, but actually much, much better.
Sharon: [00:03:34] Just to give some background. I spent four years part time and two years full time investigating tiger cub petting attractions in the United States. I traveled all over the country with photographer Steve Winter and did a deep dive investigation that resulted in the story that we published with National Geographic. A couple of months later amidst the pandemic in March 2020, the reality TV series Tiger King Murder, Mayhem and Madness put the tiger tourism industry on the radar. There were 34 million viewers in the first ten days after its release. It focused on Joe Exotic, but also other big cat owners, four in particular that also ran cub petting attractions. To some viewers these people became eccentric cult heroes. Some viewers wanted to pet a cub, but many were shocked. There was one clip in Tiger King that showed a just born infant that was still wet, was yanked from its mother with a metal hook and pulled through some chain link fence. I think that was one of the very few glimpses behind the scenes of what was really going on here.
Elizabeth: [00:04:48] Well, I think that's part of what the worry was for people who really care about tigers and what's happening to them in this country. One of the worries with Tiger King was that it really wasn't a pro tiger show as much. It was a reality show, right?
Sharon: [00:05:04] Absolutely. It really did not show the reality of what this tiger cub petting industry truly is, but it in combination with a number of court cases that have been decided and been in the courts over the last couple of years and particularly in the last year, have really raised public concern. So in spite of itself, it actually did educate people.
Elizabeth: [00:05:30] Do you think that one clip is really what spurred a lot of people's concern and actually like wanting to stand up against this?
Sharon: [00:05:39] I think many people had no idea that cubs were passed around to tourists in the way that they are at these venues, and a lot of people are shocked by it.
Elizabeth: [00:05:47] I think a lot of people had no idea that people own tigers. How many tigers do we have in this country?
Sharon: [00:05:52] We really don't know and that's a government oversight issue. Usda is in charge of both licensing facilities that show animals to the public, but also they are charged with enforcing the Animal Welfare Act, which is very basic animal welfare standards. They have done such a poor job and it's been carefully documented how little enforcement they're actually doing. They're not fulfilling their federal mandate, we really have no idea how many tigers there are at this point. Estimates are that there are probably more in captivity in the United States than the three thousand nine hundred that remain in the wild in Asia.
Elizabeth: [00:06:32] Now everyone in this country knows that we have a tiger problem. So before we even get into all of the tiger owners. I want to go back to Joe Exotic because not only were you at his trial pre Tiger King coming out, but you were also at his sentencing since the last time I saw you. So, will you talk a little about both of those experiences after you had spent so many years investigating this and exposing it and what it felt like to not only see the trial, but to then be there when he was sentenced?
Sharon: [00:07:03] The first time I glimpsed Joe Exotic was in the courtroom. I first went to the Greater exotic animal park that he ran. A week after he had taken off and gone into hiding. So after, you know, doing all this research, forensic video, research and deep dive, research into this man. The first time I saw him was in the courtroom, which was really wild. So I sat through the six day trial. I'd never attended a federal trial before. Many of the exhibits that are shown during a trial are not included in the public documents that are then available. There were many emails, recordings and videos that were presented as evidence that I would not have seen if I had not been in the courtroom. It was also really amazing that at least three or four witnesses, people who work within the industry, testified that it's standard practice to ship tigers around and make it a cash business. So, these tiger cubs are sold illegally across state lines and then paid for, in cash to hide those transactions. It's against the law to sell an endangered species across state lines.
Elizabeth: [00:08:22] They're all selling them to each other, right?
Sharon: [00:08:24] Yes. Cubs are handled by the public from maybe four weeks old, until they're like somewhere between 12 and 16 weeks old. Legally, they can only do it from 8 to 12 weeks, but all that is really pushed after that. They're too big and dangerous to pet so you need the next batch. Those cubs at that point either are sold or dumped, many of them disappear. There's lots of anecdotal evidence that many are killed. The public really does not realize what happens to these adorable cubs that they were just cuddling and feeding a bottle to and snapping selfies with. It's really a pretty bleak existence being pulled from their mothers at birth. Handled poorly. Again, many die as cubs.
Elizabeth: [00:09:09] And the mothers, they are just like breeding machines.
Sharon: [00:09:12] Absolutely. I like to call tiger breeding facilities Tiger Mills.
Elizabeth: [00:09:17] So, you are at the trial, you're at the sentencing and then Tiger King comes out. Did you have any inclination or expectation that this would keep happening, that these guys, I know some of these things were in court pre Tiger King, but these guys, it feels like they're just getting taken down. Which is like victory after victory for the Tigers and all the people who've been fighting this. Can we talk about each one of them because each story is not only just atrocious and so disturbing? Why are they being taken down? It's fascinating how this is all happening at once.
Sharon: [00:09:50] So almost all of the individuals in the Tiger King series have lost their USDA permits to exhibit wildlife. Being closed down or facing lawsuits and criminal charges. There are five main characters: Joe Exotic, his former business partner Jeff Lowe, Doc Antle, Tim Stark and Mario Taraweeh. All but one are in court to face felony charges. Three have been shut down.
Elizabeth: [00:10:14] So it will be really hard to do a second season.
Sharon: [00:10:17] They actually have been filming for a second season, and it was one of the reasons that the Department of Justice filed a suit against Jeff Lowe, Joe Exotic's former partner. Some of the history here dates back to 2016. There was a roadside zoo, Crooked Hollow Zoo in Iowa, that PETA sued for violations of the Endangered Species Act. They were saying that their mistreatment of endangered big cats violated federal law. They won that case. There was a second and third case, one using the Endangered Species Act.
Elizabeth: [00:10:58] How do they use it?
Sharon: [00:10:59 ] Under the Endangered Species Act, it's illegal to harm, harass, injure or kill protected species. PETA has successfully sued several roadside zoos under the ACA. Those judges noted that this law applies to animals in captivity, not just in the wild.
Elizabeth: [00:11:16] You would think then that would happen more and more. Using the Endangered Species Act?
Sharon: [00:11:20] Legal precedent is growing. Initially, PETA filed many of these suits and won these suits, but these were district court cases and they were filed by an animal welfare group. Although that does give them legal precedent, there are some states that could choose to ignore that precedent. That is now quite different because a federal lawsuit has now been filed. When the Department of Justice filed suit against Jeff Lowe in November, that completely changed everything because a DOJ case carries a lot of legal weight.
Elizabeth: [00:12:04] Sure.
Sharon: [00:12:05] The Department of Justice typically doesn't litigate animal welfare cases. In fact, this is the first one they've ever taken on.
Elizabeth: [00:12:07] Why did they get involved?
Sharon: [00:12:08] Because Lowe publicly flaunted the law. I interviewed the DOJ attorney who's arguing the case Jonathan Bright Bill, and he called Lowe's actions a very aggressive form of evasion, that was occurring from an individual who bragged that he was above the law and could evade the law. So the DOJ didn't necessarily go after him for the animal welfare violations.
Elizabeth: [00:12:38] They just didn't like him.
Sharon: [00:12:40] He was violating the law and bragging that he could get away with it. What happened is that Usda suspended Lowe's license to exhibit wildlife last summer because of egregious conditions. He then surrendered it permanently to avoid government oversight. He closed the old park that he shared with Joe Exotic and opened a new Tiger King Park. He used it as a private film set. He, you know, brought in film crews, including the Tiger King crew, and was doing various internet exhibitions of tigers and big cats. But that still requires a USDA license.
Elizabeth: [00:13:17] Which he no longer had?
Sharon: [00:13:18] He gave it up to evade the law. The DOJ complaint was the longest civil litigation I'd ever seen. They really did serious, serious work. It was a one hundred and ten page complaint that was essentially a dark laundry list of abuse. That lawsuit opened with a quote from Lowe. He had said to someone that he had learned a lot about distracting, diverting attention and using smoke and mirrors in the last few years. Quote unquote, if we lose a lawsuit, we simply change the name, open another animal business someplace else, and we all have multiple USDA licenses available. So, it was statements like that that forced the DOJ to act. After reading that 110 page complaint. I was really depressed for days. I've looked into the tiger cub petting industry for many years now and it was the most disturbing document I've ever read.
Elizabeth: [00:14:22] How so?
Sharon: [00:14:23] There was case after case of animals that suffered from preventable or treatable conditions that were just in horrible, horrible shape: malnutrition, dehydration, worms, injuries, infections, disease. Some of them that died were burned on makeshift pyres.
Elizabeth: [00:14:44] Oh, come on.
Sharon: [00:14:45] When USDA inspectors went in, they found carcasses and half burned carcasses like all in the back parts of the property. There was no refrigerator on the property. The animals were fed rotting meat. It was just hard to wrap my head around and that's for someone who knows way too much about what's going on at these places.
Elizabeth: [00:15:01] It's been in the news and I think a lot of people are aware. But for those who aren't, what ended up happening to Joe Exotic?
Sharon: [00:15:08] The first really big conviction was Joe Exotic. He's in jail for 22 years for two counts of murder, for trying to hire someone to kill Carole Baskin, a sanctuary owner who revealed his cub petting practices. He also was convicted of 17 crimes against wildlife from abuse to illegally shipping tigers around the country and also executing five tigers to make room for others.
Elizabeth: [00:15:41] That was probably pretty standard practice because what happens to all these cubs once they are 12 weeks old or 16 weeks old?
Sharon: [00:15:48] That's always been the big question. What happens to these animals when they're too big to pet? There have been some documented cases of trafficking their parts, teeth, claws, skins. There have even been a couple of cases successfully prosecuted, where parts from tigers in the U.S have been shipped overseas into the Asian black market. There have not been a lot of cases of that, but there's a lot of tigers floating around and nobody really knows what happens to most of them.
Elizabeth: [00:16:18] What about Tim Stark? Will you talk about, first of all, who he is in Tiger King, for people who didn't see it? I don't know anyone who didn't see it, I can't imagine, but for people who don't remember. Just to refresh people. Then what's happened since because it's pretty nuts.
Sharon: [00:16:33] Tim Stark opened a non-profit animal sanctuary in 1999 called Wildlife in Need. His nonprofit charter was to rescue, rehab and return indigenous species to the wild. In 2020, Tim Stark’s spent a lot of time in court. He was sued by PETA for Endangered Species Act violations, specifically pulling cubs from their mothers. Declawing them, which is actually amputating the first knuckle of their fingers. Also for illegally claiming that his sanctuary was a true non-profit business that rescued, rehabbed and returned indigenous species to the wild. In fact, he'd never done that.
Elizabeth: [00:17:22] So, he was saying that they were putting tigers back in India, for instance?
Sharon: [00:17:26] No, he established his nonprofit to, say, rehabilitate a raccoon that got run over on a road or some orphaned possums. Meanwhile he had hundreds of animals, mostly exotic species and dozens and dozens and dozens of big cats. He was a big breeder, and had a huge cub petting operation. The attorney general in Indiana filed suit against him in early 2020 for fraud because of violating this non-profit charter. The zoo took in a lot of money. In 2016, Wildlife in Need reported contributions of 1.2 million to the IRS. While investigating wildlife and needs finances. The state of Indiana said it identified wire transfers totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars from Wildlife in Needs bank accounts to known and suspected animal dealers, many of whom were wildlife traffickers.
Elizabeth: [00:18:23] So, he's taking all this money from his nonprofit that's supposed to be like rehabbing raccoons, and he's buying tigers.
Sharon: [00:18:30] Well, he was buying all kinds of exotic species that are worth a great deal of money.
Elizabeth: [00:18:23] Right.
Sharon: [00:18:30] So, he lost that case. He was also sued by PETA under the Endangered Species Act, and he lost that case, and he lost his USDA exhibitors permit. So he can no longer own or exhibit animals anywhere, ever.
Elizabeth: [00:18:51] What about the USDA? Because they've been pretty terrible just across the board with animal abuse? Are they changing?
Sharon: [00:18:59] So the USDA has been under fire for poor oversight for quite some time. Under the Trump administration, I heard their job described as protecting the industry kind of, treating animal facilities like their clients rather than providing oversight. So the USDA licenses facilities that show animals to the public, and it's responsible for enforcing very basic federal Animal Welfare Act standards. But even in the case of serious abuse like Tim Stark. It's taken the agency four or five or 10 years to levy moderate fines, and they rarely revoke licenses. Some of those really egregious citations that Tim Stark received date back to 2012.
Elizabeth: [00:19:49] And it's just now happened?
Sharon: [00:19:51] He lost his license in 2020, and there were many, many citations long before that. He fed animals expired meat and roadkill. Their water squirmed with larvae. Animals lived in fetid enclosures, dangerous debris, no shelter from sun or snow. The judge noted that the flimsy cages posed significant risk to the public. A leopard had escaped and was shot by a neighbor.
Elizabeth: [00:20:25] Oh my God.
Sharon: [00:20:26] Many, many, many people were bitten or scratched in these completely free for all situations. Where there would be up to 60 people with a bunch of cubs running around. Sick or injured animals went unexamined by veterinarians and many died. Stark testified that he, quote unquote, euthanized a sick and injured young leopard with a baseball bat. Animals were regularly trafficked in and out. One inspection discovered 43 undocumented new animals and six that went missing.
Elizabeth: [00:20:52] When all this was going on, did he go on the run or what happened?
Sharon: [00:20:56] So at a certain point, he was facing two arrest warrants. One was for assaulting an assistant attorney general during an inspection of his facility as part of the fraud case. The second, when a judge ordered his animals to be taken into protective custody because they were in danger. Twenty three went missing and that was the second warrant for those disappeared animals.
Elizabeth: [00:21:23] And no one knows what happened to them?
Sharon: [00:21:25] They disappeared forever. So he went on the run, he was gone for three weeks and was arrested in New York state. During the time he was on the run, Stark did this Facebook Live video, where he railed against the judges, officials, and animal rights activists. He claimed that together, all of these people had conspired to deny him the right to own and breed exotic animals. He taunted law enforcement on this Facebook Live video. He waved a hand grenade in front of his phone. Keep in mind, he's driving down the highway during this hour long Facebook Live. He was also saying that he was willing to die for what he believed in as he's waving this hand grenade. When he was arrested in New York state, a toy hand grenade was found among his possessions.
Elizabeth: [00:22:16] What happened when he got arrested?
Sharon: [00:22:17] He was extradited to Indiana and briefly jailed. He now faces battery and intimidation charges, which are felonies. That's after losing three court cases, his exhibitors license and all of his animals, and his nonprofit is closed.
Elizabeth: [00:22:33] And it's not over?
Sharon: [00:22:34] He could face jail time. When all of Stark's animals were confiscated under a court order. Stark again went on Facebook. He urged his supporters to obstruct vehicles, throw rocks at the rescuers, and he said he was taught to shoot and kill animal rights people while brandishing a rifle on a Facebook Live video. He also claimed to have wired the cages with explosives that he could detonate from his phone.
Elizabeth: [00:23:01] Oh, come on!
Sharon: [00:22:02] So on September 11th last year, a convoy of 50 law enforcement swarmed in everything from local police, sheriffs, state troopers and federal marshals to even a SWAT team. They had to sweep the property before allowing the rescuers inside.
Elizabeth: [00:23:17] That is unbelievable.
Sharon: [00:23:19] Can't make this up.
Elizabeth: [00:23:20] It's nuts, with these other guys too, right? None of this was new. They all had suits against them, for the most part. Or No?
Sharon: [00:23:28] No, there's been plenty of new suits filed.
Elizabeth: [00:23:29] OK.
Sharon: [00:23:35] Last October, Doc Antle, who runs Myrtle Beach Safari in South Carolina, was indicted for wildlife trafficking and conspiracy charges, again both of which are felonies.
Elizabeth: [00:23:43] What's happening with his case?
Sharon: [00:23:45] That case is ongoing. He could go to jail.
Elizabeth: [00:23:46] So talk about the fifth guy in a Tiger King, the last man standing?
Sharon: [00:23:53] Ironically, the only Tiger King roadside zoo owner that's not in court is Mario Taraweeh. He's a former Miami drug cartel kingpin, and he was sentenced to 100 years in prison in 1989. He fronted his drug trade through an animal import export business. He killed an undercover informant.
Elizabeth: [00:24:18] How much of that hundred years did he serve?
Sharon: [00:24:20] He served about 12 years, if I'm not mistaken. He turned informant, was released, and he now runs the Zoological Wildlife Foundation. Which currently offers lion or jaguar cub encounters for $300 per person. Larger play with a number of animal encounters is $800 a person, and TripAdvisor lists it as number four of 340 things to do in Miami.
Elizabeth: [00:24:46] See, that's one thing that really has to change, TripAdvisor and all of those kinds of sites. It should not be advertising any of this kind of cut petting, it's gross. What is it about these guys that compels them to even get into this in the first place? Because from what you've told me behind the scenes and what I’ve learned from watching Tiger King, they all seem to have a lot in common.
Sharon: [00:25:09] After sitting through Joe Exotic’s six day trial. I really wondered why some tiger owners seem to consider themselves above the law and harmed animals. Also, exotic cats seem to attract a distinct personality type. I talked to a number of different experts to explore that question. So an attorney with the Humane Society of the United States. Liana Stormborn, told me that big cat owners tend to suffer from, I quote, ‘malignant narcissism.’ With a distinctly masculine element. It's almost a status symbol, like a trophy or a luxury car. There's also been plenty of data and research on the psychology of animal abusers. It's essentially the powerful preying on the weak and vulnerable.
Elizabeth: [00:25:59] Sure, sure. But there's a special breed of tiger owners.
Sharon: [00:26:03] It's a very distinct personality. There's many scary statistics attached to animal abusers. Perpetrators are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people. In the first 18 months of my two year investigation into these roadside zoos. Steve Winter and I were undercover, and it was really frightening. It felt dangerous. Many of the workers at roadside zoos or owners had guns on their hips. Some of them, I know, were convicted felons and weren't supposed to be carrying firearms. I knew a lot of what was going on behind the scenes. There was a lot of employee intimidation, as well as criminal charges and criminal convictions. It was really a pretty scary story to do. I decided at one point to do background checks on the owners and on a number of workers who ran roadside attractions that own tigers and or had tiger petting opportunities for tourists. I discovered that the large, large majority had some kind of criminal background, including many, many felonies, everything from gun and drug charges to physical abuse. One was a registered sex offender. I would think twice about as a parent bringing my child to roadside zoos such as this. These are not accredited facilities. Animals live often in very, very poor circumstances and there's a concern about who owns and who works at these facilities.
Elizabeth: [00:27:41] Do these guys get shut down and get their licenses revoked. Do more just keep popping up?
Sharon: [00:27:45] The cub petting business is really in decline. Some of the largest players are out of the business. At his peak, Joe Exotic claimed to have well over 200 tigers, lions and tiger lion hybrids. You know, ligers, tai ligers, Teigen's and he's out of business. Doc Antle breeds an unknown number of cats, but he always has cubs. Tim Stark was a major breeder. He's out of business. Jeff Lowe still reportedly has cubs.
Elizabeth: [00:28:19] So he'll soon be out of business?
Sharon: [00:28:21] I think it's very likely the Department of Justice will win the case against Jeff Lowe, and he will lose the remainder of his animals and the ability to own animals in the future.
Elizabeth: [00:28:30] Where do all these animals go? Because it's a lot of animals at once between all these places?
Sharon: [00:28:35] There are a number of accredited sanctuaries across the country. Two of the best are the Wild Animal Sanctuary in Colorado and Turpentine Creek in Arkansas.
Elizabeth: [00:28:46] A lot of places that are really just absolutely terrible for animals somehow still get to be called sanctuaries. It's very confusing when a place is called a sanctuary. There's an automatic assumption that the animals are well cared for and it's ok to visit, but that's often just not the case.
Sharon: [00:29:07] A true sanctuary keeps animals for life. They don't breed or sell animals. They provide proper nutrition, good vet care, and they do not allow any hands on contact, that's a big and important factor. If any of those criteria are not being met, it's a pseudo sanctuary. Interestingly enough, almost every one of the dozens and dozens of roadside zoos that I visited were non-profits, and they called themselves rescues or sanctuaries, even though many did not meet those criteria.
Elizabeth: [00:29:48] How do they get away with that and how do they keep their nonprofit status?
Sharon: [00:29:51] I think the stark case may be the first of many that examine nonprofits and really look at whether they're legit or not.
Elizabeth: [00:30:01] I hope so. I mean, there's a lot of awareness and like you said, people are starting to understand that this even exists, and just how horrific it is.
Sharon: [00:30:12] The cases against Tiger King's cat owners have already affected the cub petting industry. Congress is also stepping in. As I mentioned earlier, despite the fact that thousands of big cats are in backyards and roadside zoos across the country, the U.S. has no federal regulation on big cat ownership. The Big Cat Safety Act would be the nation's first federal bill regulating big cat ownership. It was recently reintroduced to both the House and the Senate and what it would do is it would finally prohibit private ownership of big cats. You'd no longer be able to keep one in your backyard. It would also ban cub petting. That would end the demand for tiger milk cub breeding, and it would end this tiger crisis that is happening here in the U.S.
Elizabeth: [00:31:02] Yeah and a lot of these guys in the tiger breeding and petting industries, they say that they're doing a lot for conservation. How are they even trying to pass that as something they're doing? Can we just talk about why that makes zero sense?
Sharon: [00:31:19] First off, a captive bred tiger has never been released into the wild. Every one of these cub petting places you go to claims to be saving tigers. These are cross bred, you know, between any number of the tiger subspecies, often Bengal and Siberian. They're also terribly inbred, so they're really unhealthy cats. To produce a white tiger requires really close inbreeding like mother to son, father to daughter.
Elizabeth: [00:31:52] That's the only way you get a white one?
Sharon: [00:31:53] Yes, very, very inbred. So, even if the time came where tigers disappeared from the wild and somehow conservationists were trying to bring captive tigers into wild habitats. It would never be these unhealthy mutt tigers. The reason that captive tigers don't just go back into the wild is because they're accustomed to people, so that means they gravitate to villages. If they're near villages, then they kill people's livestock and or they attack people. It really doesn't work.
Elizabeth: [00:32:29] Right. So, before all of this investigation that you and Steve Winter have done in the United States, the two of you are partners in work and in life. Spent a lot of years on big cats and tigers in the wild. To go from all the years of seeing tigers in the wild, writing about tigers in the wild, and a lot of it is not positive because of environmental concerns and habitat destruction and the fact that we only have about 4000 left. But you're looking at and writing about these majestic creatures. To go from that to then just like the catastrophe in the U.S., what does that do to you?
Sharon: [00:33:12] It has not been an easy thing to immerse so deeply into, but it matters. It doesn't just matter for the welfare of those particular animals. Because the U.S. has been able to have really great influence internationally on conservation issues and on wildlife trafficking issues. But because our tiger situation is in such disarray here, we have no voice to promote better conservation of tigers in the wild. Obviously, loss of habitat is huge, but the other major major threat facing tigers is the illegal wildlife trade, specifically for their skins and and their bones, which are used in tiger bone wine. The market is Asia, China is the top consumer. Four countries in Asia farm tigers for their parts and products. The world has tried to speak up in international treaties, like societies, to try to convince these countries to shut down these operations. As long as these farms are feeding tiger products into the market, it spurs demand and just keeps it all going. That means the tigers are poached from the wild. So there's a much larger concern to a cub petting attraction than simply animal welfare, and those are very serious concerns, and I'm not minimizing them in any way. But to protect the last remaining tigers, the world is going to have to address the illegal international trade in tiger parts.
Elizabeth: [00:34:59] Well, and no one is going to take us seriously. So the U.S. has no influence because we look like a bunch of idiots actually in the sense of what we're allowing here.
Sharon: [00:35:08] A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service officer tried to speak to Chinese delegates at a CITES meeting a few years back to discuss tiger farming and the impact on wild tigers, and he was laughed at. He was literally told, “At least we know how many tigers we have”, and they walked away. So I think, you know, that really shows the situation we're in. Until the U.S gets its own tiger issues in hand. We can't have a voice in broader conservation.
Elizabeth: [00:35:39] But it does look positive and hopeful here, all of a sudden, correct?
Sharon: [00:35:44] Between court decisions that are identifying standard practices, such as separating mothers and cubs at birth. As violations of the Endangered Species Act and with real potential for passing the Big Cat Public Safety Act in this current Congress. This industry may be reaching the end of the line.
Elizabeth: [00:36:08] It's amazing. How long would that be from now? The Big Cat Safety Act passing?
Sharon: [00:36:12] The Big Cat Public Safety Act passed the House in December.
Elizabeth: [00:36:16] Yeah, I knew that.
Sharon: [00:36:17] It never went to the floor in the Senate. But there are four co-sponsors that introduced the bill in the Senate this time around, compared to one the first time around. So there's a lot more support, and I think an awful lot of that comes from public awareness.
Elizabeth: [00:36:32] I think when Tiger King first came out, a lot of people thought this was going to feed the industry more and kind of make it bigger. Instead, it has been like this slow takedown or fast takedown. I hope in the near future, putting cub selfies on social media will start to be taboo. It's just not cool.
Sharon: [00:36:50] Well, if the Big Cat Public Safety Act is passed, it will be illegal. Years ago when I first started hearing about this, there were cub petting opportunities at malls. You could go to a flea market and pet a cub. There were ads in the paper to buy a cub for a couple of hundred bucks. It was everywhere. Today none of that is happening. Many of the major breeders have been shut down. The industry has really waned and there are less tigers. So, there really is progress.
Elizabeth: [00:37:26] There's progress, too, because of people like you exposing all this and spending years of your life, getting in there and really showing the public, not only what this is doing to tigers here, but like you said, all the tigers left in the world.
Sharon: [00:37:43] I think the writing is on the wall. The cub petting and tiger overpopulation crisis may be finally coming to an end.
Elizabeth: [00:37:52] Yeah, it's really good stuff, Sharon. Thank you for today. It's been so good to see you and see such good things happening in this whole world of tigers in the United States.
Sharon: [00:38:04] Thank you so much for this discussion today, and onward and forward.
Elizabeth: [00:38:11] When Sharon and I walked out of the studio, she turned her phone on and there was a text that said Jeff Lowe's facility was raided again by federal agents. Since then, the Department of Justice has confiscated every big cat protected by the Endangered Species Act from Jeff and Lauren Lowe. Brittany Peet, who is PETA's deputy general counsel, has said, “There are no tigers left at Tiger King Park and the Lowes reign of terror against these threatened and endangered big cats may soon be over.” If PETA has its way, these Tiger King villains will lose every other animal in their custody too. Let's hope so. To learn more about this, about Sharon and to read Sharon's articles in National Geographic, go to our website SpeciesUnite.com. We will have links to everything we're on Facebook and Instagram at @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people to find the show. If you would like to support Species Unite, we would greatly appreciate it. Go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and click Donate. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pierce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santana Polky and Anna Connor, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day!
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