S6. E16: Nina Jackel: Lady Freethinker
“You can't get to a point where you're so sensitive that you don't call out cruelty and torture when you see it, whether it's to a human being or to the planet or to an animal, you can't just stay silent, but you have to approach in the right way.”
- Nina Jackel
Nina Jackel is an activist and journalist and the founder and president of Lady Freethinker, a media organization that provides news and grassroots action for a free and compassionate world - for every species.
In 2013 Lady Freethinker was a blog written by Nina for a handful of readers. Those readers soon multiplied and today, Lady Freethinker is a media and news organization with a team of writers and millions of readers. Their investigations and campaigns have led to major animal cruelty victories across the globe.
Nina is a relentless force in the fight for justice for animals but she also has huge empathy for humans and the sometimes slow process it can be for them to get fully on board.
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Transcript:
Nina: [00:00:15] You can't get to a point where you're so sensitive, that you don't call out cruelty and torture when you see it, whether it's to a human being or to the planet or to an animal. You can't just stay silent, but you have to approach it in the right way.
Elizabeth: [00:00:41] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. For the next two weeks we are asking you to join us in our mission to change the way that the world treats animals and become a member of Species Unite. Members are heroes for animals and the benefits of joining our pretty awesome for a monthly donation of any size even two bucks, you will receive access to exclusive content, outtakes, bonus podcast episodes, updates and newsletters, priority access to all species, unite events and a welcome pack from yours truly. So go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and click Become a member. This conversation is with Nina Jackel. Nina is an activist and journalist and the founder and president of Lady Freethinker. Lady Freethinker started in 2013. It was Nina's blog and she had a handful of readers, but those readers became more readers and more readers, and now it's a non-profit media organization with millions of followers. Nina, thank you so much for being here in person. It's awesome, I am so happy to have you on the show, so thank you.
Nina: [00:02:17] Thank you for having me. It's so great to actually meet you in person as a physical human being, and not just some sounds coming from my computer in Los Angeles.
Elizabeth: [00:02:26] I love it. Ok. Before we even get into anything, I want to talk to you about your name and the name Lady Freethinker because I'm jealous of both. Your name, Nina Jackel is like the coolest name I think I've ever heard. Then your organization's name, people know you as Lady Freethinker is. That goes unsaid. It's just awesome.
Nina: [00:02:51] Well, thank you for that. I can't take credit for the Jackel because that's actually my married name, which actually worked out very well for an animal activist.
Elizabeth: [00:03:01] What about Lady Freethinker? How did that happen?
Nina: [00:03:03] Yeah. So Lady Freethinker started as a personal blog that I created back in 2013. At the time, I was working as a freelance journalist, writing a lot of nutrition articles, some sort of just random things here and there. But I wanted to create a space where I could write about the things that really matter to me and that I cared about. It really was just sort of a personal, tiny project. I was lucky if we got six people who would view my little blog in a day, honestly, I'd be thrilled to get that. But it was just a place where I could really express the thoughts that I lived with and that I thought that I had to get out. Just as it was my duty as a human being on this Earth for the short time that I have. So Lady Freethinker just kind of became that and then evolved into something, I guess, more specific and bigger over time. But it still does really stand for that for thinking beyond those norms that cause suffering for animals, also for humans and for the planet in general.
Elizabeth: [00:04:18] When you were writing the blog, was it animals, animal rights or was it human as well?
Nina: [00:04:24] There were a lot of animal rights posts, I think at the time when you start something, you don't necessarily know where it's going to end up. So when I started, it was for animals, humans and the environment. But what happened was all my posts kept just sort of being about animals. Because that's not to say I care more about animals than anything else. But I feel like animal rights is an issue that is just so pressing and it's so buried compared to other issues. Animals really don't have the opportunity to speak out for themselves, but as humans, we can speak out for them if we have that platform. Still not exclusively about animals, it's really about more holistic compassion for, just life, all living beings.
Elizabeth: [00:05:20] In some ways, too. I think when you really think about this stuff, it's so interconnected, how we treat animals is how we treat humans, then that's how we treat animals. With animals, the conditioning is just so much more. In the sense we just don't even notice that you're a part of this enormous amount of suffering, myself included well during a lot of my life.
Nina: [00:05:47] Right. It's absolutely normalized. I mean, the fact that we have these concentration camps for animals that are a completely accepted part of our commerce as a global community. The fact that these animals are kept in horrendous conditions and slaughtered without any regard for their feelings, it's something that most of us accept, and it's something that I accepted for a very long time,most of us are not born into vegetarian or vegan families. I certainly wasn't. It's interesting. I was talking to my father last night, actually, and he's definitely not a vegetarian or vegan, and that's fine. But he said something that I never thought he would say, and he said that he thought that as history progresses, there will be a time where people look back on our society and say, Did you know back then people used to eat animals like they used to eat cows and they used to eat pigs. Like, wasn't that insane? He was saying that in the context of accepting other cultures and not being so ethnocentric, that you judge other cultures for what they do because we'll think about what history is going to say about you right now. I think that's true of all of us. I'm not saying that to pass the judgment upon people who eat meat because there are ways that. I live my life that I am sure in a thousand years we'll look absolutely barbaric, so that was the way that he meant it as a meat eater saying that. Which kind of blew my mind actually and I was very proud of him at that moment. But that goes back to the thought of being a free thinker and trying as much as we can to to think outside of those norms that we really just accept. We all do. We all do. It's not a matter of feeling holier than thou or being judgmental, but it's just trying to do better.
Elizabeth: [00:07:39] It's trying to do better. I think when you get a little bit of awareness, you kind of crave more and veils start coming down and things like start opening up to you. You can't unsee, as everybody always says, but you really can't unsee. I do think that the world, in some ways, or at least the West right now with this huge boom and veganism and plant based everything. Even the people who are just doing little bits better, it's creating a major shift.
Nina: [00:08:11] It is creating such a huge shift. When I drive at Del Taco and I see, I don't know if it's beyond or impossible, but they have like a beyond taco or or you go to McDonald's and it's the Impossible Burger or whatever, Most of the people who are buying those vegan burgers are not vegan, they are really driving this change. That's one of the reasons I think it's so important for our movement to be so just encompassing everybody. No matter where they are, they embrace anybody who's making any kind of change to create a more compassionate world because they're doing something fantastic, regardless of what their regular everyday diet looks like. It doesn't matter. They're doing something.
Elizabeth: [00:08:57] You do a lot of things incredibly well. But one thing that really sticks out to me as somebody who's in this as well is. You're really open to anyone who is anyone. But at the same time, you're not afraid to present the most horrific issues on the planet and in a way you're not afraid to scare people away. Yet at the same time, you're bringing everybody in and there's an art to that.
Nina: [00:09:25] It's a science that I'm constantly trying to find the right balance with. Thank you for saying that I actually really appreciate it because I try very, very hard to find that line where you can still make an impact. Because I believe that in order to make an impact, you have to show the truth. The truth is horrific, a lot. But you also don't want to repulse people. So there's a line and the line is different for every individual. How much can you handle? How much horrific reality can you handle before you turn away? But to where it still sinks in, it's a delicate balance, and it's something that, it's not just me, there's a team at Lady Freethinker now. I don't want to take all the credit like we strive, we strive to find that balance because I think that's really important. I think if we hadn't shown the horror of what happens to animals, we would be decades behind in the animal rights movement because you have to show that. Whether it's animal testing or factory farming. If I hadn't seen an image of a monkey in what at the time looked like, it was basically an electric chair, when I was 12, I would have never even thought about animal testing. It's like, Oh, well, that's what you have to do to create medicine, right? What I saw were those horrible images and that worked for me that made it sink in. I think that makes it sink in for a lot of people. But you also have to make sure that they they stay with you well
Elizabeth: [00:10:49] You don't want to just be speaking to animal rights people or vegans because, well, they already know. That's not really going to create much change.
Nina: [00:10:57] Absolutely. Yeah. Not everybody responds to images of cruelty. I find that my audience does. Maybe that's because the cruelty aspect is what we really fight against more. But there, especially in terms of just vegetarianism or veganism, there is the health aspect, there's the environmental aspect. I think knowing your audience and speaking to what really resonates with them, is a big part of being an advocate for animals.
Elizabeth: [00:11:25] So let's go back and talk about how Lady Freethinker evolved from this little blog with six readers. To literally this enormous organization. You have millions of people that get your emails and petitions.
Nina: [00:11:38] We do. Yeah, honestly, it's hard for me to really even think about. I think what happened was when I really found my voice and realized that that voice did care about animal rights. I don't want to say more than other issues, but was more focused on animal rights than other issues. I found an audience that felt the same way that I did and an audience who could not stand to see animals suffering and wanted to do something about it. When I did start to grow the audience, it was because people understood what I was feeling because it hurts me viscerally to watch animals suffer. It just does, and it always has. I think that there are a lot of people who feel the same way. So when I wrote about my truth and the things that I really cared about, there were other people who cared about that too. That was an amazing thing, to be honest, just to see that other people really want to stop animal suffering and want to take action to do it in whatever way that means for them. Most of our audience is not vegan. That's actually good.
Elizabeth: [00:12:47] Yeah, that's what you want.
Nina: [00:12:49] Because the vegans are not going to be the ones who change the world for animals. It's going to be the people who really love animals. They're in whatever place they are in their journey of activism, but they want to take action today to do something to help.
Elizabeth: [00:13:06] When you started doing petitions because you guys are really famous for your petitions.
Nina: [00:13:11] I know.
Elizabeth: [00:13:06] I think everybody I know, when I was talking to our team and I was saying, ‘I don't know when I started getting Lady Freethinker emails, I don't know where they came from. I don't know how long I've been getting them, but I've known about you for years.’ But like everybody on our team all said the exact same thing.
Nina: [00:13:30] I don't know either.
Elizabeth: [00:13:31] Really?
Nina: [00:13:34] Yeah That's kind of funny. I'm glad they're aware of us.
Elizabeth: [00:13:36] Everyone just somehow became aware of you and started following you.
Nina: [00:13:42] That's yeah, it's interesting. I mean, me and the team, we try really hard to get that message out. What I will say about the petitions is that they get shared more than anything else. They're actually just a small fraction of what we do as an organization, but they get the most attention. I've sort of tried to deconstruct why that is. Honestly, I feel that when people see suffering, they really want to take action, they want to do something about it, and a petition gives people a way to do something, and it's a very simple thing. You're not asking a lot, but once they sign their name, then they're added to this collective voice that then can make a pretty big impact and petitions can.
Elizabeth: [00:14:32] When did you first realize the power of a petition, like when you actually saw a petition kind of blow up and create some change?
Nina: [00:14:39] No, actually, that's a very good question, and I can pinpoint one petition that really was sort of pivotal in the creation of our sort of petition campaigning. There was a dog in Turkey and there was a terrible picture of this poor dog sort of cowering. He was sitting between two young men who had cut off his ears. So it wasn't that graphic, but you could see the dog's ears had been cut off and the dog's ears were reportedly cut off because the dog had lost a dog fight. It was punishment, and it was one of the most heartbreaking things that I've ever seen in my life. So I started a petition to the government of Turkey, and the ask was for them to investigate this and to prosecute those responsible, but even beyond that, to to take measures to stop that kind of animal cruelty. That petition ended up getting one point five million signatures. I guess you could say it went viral. The Daily Mail wrote about the petition and it took a long time. But about a year later, Turkey actually created an online animal cruelty task force, specifically to deal with things like that. Turkey is not exactly known for strict animal protection laws, but the fact that they would actually do that because of the awareness that was raised. Whether it's because of the publicity or because they care about animals. I don't care. It doesn't matter why. After we published that, it definitely opened my eyes to the impact, not just in awareness, but in actual policy changes that you can achieve with a petition.
Elizabeth: [00:16:34] And is there? I don't know if there's any difference, but is there like in terms of reaction in the public when you do a petition like that where it's really based on one dog, even though it's animal cruelty. Versus, say, a petition on the dog meat trade or dog slaughter? I'm just wondering about the psychology and human psychology with animals to begin with.
Nina: [00:16:56] Yeah, that's an absolutely fair question. I will say that the dog meat trade is something that people passionately stand against, so I don't know if that's the best analogy. If you want to talk about factory farming versus...
Elizabeth: [00:17:12] OK so what I mean, not the dog meat trade, but like a mass animal slaughter saying versus an individual who's been completely tortured?
Nina: [00:17:23] Yeah I understand what you're saying. I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. So if I published a petition against an individual pig who was slaughtered in an inhumane way or even just an illegal and sort of strange way, like not the usual slaughterhouse method at a major slaughterhouse. For example, we actually did a petition for a pig that was someone's companion animal and the pig ran away and someone ended up actually slaughtering the pig in their backyard. So, that petition got a lot of signatures, right? Because people don't want to see this, this sweet, domesticated pig slaughtered in someone's yard. Some who know how they were slaughtered. I don't remember, but it was horrible. It was horrible, and rightly so. They should be upset about that. But the attention that people will give that one pig is is greater than the attention that they will give to the factory pig farming trade. Posting a petition for that one pig versus posting a petition for the entire factory farming swine industry. I mean, there's no comparison. Because people relate to one animal, they relate to one human, they relate to one other being that they can look in the eyes and they can imagine that happening. They don't relate to numbers, right? They don't relate to billions of chickens being slaughtered. Nobody's gonna sign up to. I mean, they'll just sign up to my audience. But it won't have the same effect. Not as much as it would be for that one animal. So absolutely.
Elizabeth: [00:19:00] To go back to the dog meat trade. I've noticed this too, and it's another thing I think you guys do with incredible amounts of balance or just consciousness. It seems a lot of people don't really have a problem with our factory farming system but then they are in rage and just up in arms when they learn about dog meat. Yeah, but I find it's a balance, because on one hand, it's actually a really good way to get people to look at what we're doing.
Nina: [00:19:32] I agree with that. In our newsletters, when we have a petition or an article about the dog meat trade, I usually try and sort of transpose that with another post about factory farming for more traditionally western farm animals because I do want people to make that connection. There is something a little bit more insidious about dogs because they were bred to be our loyal companions, and I get that. But the conditions that we keep pigs and chickens in American factory farms are at least as horrendous as the conditions that these dogs are kept in in the commercial farms in South Korea, which I witnessed firsthand when I went there. So I try to get people to make that connection with the understanding that there will always be a certain loyalty toward animals who are domesticated. I don't cast judgment upon people who stand against dog meat, but then, you know, go home and eat bacon. But I do, at the very least, want them to make that connection. Just a little bit of a connection to understand that there's really, as far as sentience and intelligence, there is no difference between that dog and that pig.
Elizabeth: [00:20:56] Right.
Nina: [00:20:58] So there's a way to do it without trying to hit people over the head and say, if you hate that, you should hate this too. You can't do that to people. It's more complicated than that because of the way that we're raised, because of just all of the reasons that people who eat meat eat meat.
Elizabeth: [00:21:14] We have layers and layers of conditioning and to unpeel them. For some people, it's just not not even it's not going to happen, right, ever.
Nina: [00:21:21] But that doesn't mean that they won't still take steps, right? They won't try that veggie burger next time they go to the McDonald's drive thru or do meatless Monday. If enough people do that, it still makes a difference.
Elizabeth: [00:21:35] It does.
Nina: [00:21:37] We want, not just want but we need those people, we need those people. If we're going to create a better world for animals, we need every animal advocate we can get, no matter, no matter what they do with their personal lifestyle.
Elizabeth: [00:21:49] Will you talk about some of the investigations you do? Because I've heard and I read about what is on the top of your victories page, where you guys have a page on your website.
Nina: [00:22:00] Oh, was it the chili one?
Elizabeth: [00:22:03] Yeah it was the chili one.
Nina: [00:22:04] Yeah, that was our first one.
Elizabeth: [00:22:05] Oh, it was?
Nina: [00:22:06] Yeah, but it was only two years ago. Well, we only started doing investigations. I guess there's twenty eighteen, so it was three years, three years ago. So, in twenty eighteen, I really wanted to do investigations because they're so impactful. They expose things that nobody would ever see.
Elizabeth: [00:22:20] How did you even go about starting to bring that in?
Nina: [00:22:26] Like, I'm just crazy. I was like, I want to do an investigation. I don't really know how to do them. I don't really have any investigator working for me, but I bet I could find somebody. But this investigative reporter was so amazing and she was living in Chile.
Elizabeth: [00:22:42] What did you look for somebody in Chile, or were you just like?
Nina: [00:22:45] No she just happened to be there.
Elizabeth: [00:22:47] That's awesome.
Nina: [00:22:48] I was like, So what issues are there? Like, what can we expose? What can we do? So she had read and watched documentaries about this circle of dogfighters, and these are people who had been busted in the past. There were very clear records about their behavior, but they had never done any time. Really, they hadn't suffered any consequences at all. So she suspected that they were still dogfighting and this was so driven by her. She knew where one of the properties was of a known dog fighter, and she went up there with her GoPro. She kind of told me she was going to do it before she did. I said, ‘take somebody with you and you stay safe because if anything happens to you.’
Elizabeth: [00:23:34] You're just sending this woman?
Nina: [00:23:36] I didn't send her. She wanted to do it. The thing is, I would have never sent her because I don't want to put anybody in danger, but she really wanted to go and it's like, OK, so go. But take someone, be really careful if you do it. She did. So she went to the property. There was no human being there, thankfully. But there were dozens of dogs that were on chains. They had empty water bowls that were coated in green slime. There were three dead puppies just lying there in the dirt, and she had her little GoPro camera that she was wearing, and she documented all of this. Then she went to the police, and by some stroke of luck, they actually went and they raided the property and they rescued all of the dogs. Every single dog ended up going to, well, first foster and then eventually adoption. The timing was really good because they just passed stricter animal protection laws in Chili. So these guys, they've been bust before and this guy had been busted probably three times, but nothing had happened. So he felt like he could just keep doing it, and he did. He kept doing it. Then our little scrappy investigator went up there with her GoPro and went to the cops, and they filed charges. What ended up happening was that he got the highest animal cruelty sentence ever in the history of Chile because of our investigation, which was amazing. Yes, there was jail time, but for me, what mattered more than the jail time? Because I'm not about punishment, I'm about protecting animals. Punishment doesn't get you anywhere. I just want to keep animals safe. But in addition to whatever jail sentence they give him, they imposed a lifetime ban on ever having an animal again. To me, that is like the holy grail of sentences because like. I don't care if the guy goes to jail, like that has nothing to do with animals, OK, he does this time and gets out. Then what? I want to know that animals are not going to keep suffering at this person's hands, like, that's what I carry.
Elizabeth: [00:25:38] That is insane. It is so incredible.
Nina: [00:25:40] So it was incredible and it was evidence that you really can make a difference when you want to. If you try and you're motivated, you don't need a huge budget. You can do more than you think you can.
Elizabeth: [00:25:57] Yeah. Wow. I mean, we don't even do lifetime bans here. I never hear about anyone getting a lifetime ban. If someone tortures a bunch of kittens and you can't own any animals for two years.
Nina: [00:26:07] It never happens. Every petition that we have, I always make sure that's included in the ask is lifetime ban on having animals? Because I feel like that is so important, but it almost never happens. So, yeah, for me, that was just, I mean, well, it was groundbreaking because it was historical. But just for me, as the founder of Lady Freethinker, it was groundbreaking and seeing that we could accomplish that.
Elizabeth: [00:26:28] Were you like now we have to do investigations all the time?
Nina: [00:26:30] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Elizabeth: [00:26:36] So you've been doing a bunch since?
Nina: [00:26:36] Yeah, we've continued to do them, and they're all different. They all vary. Usually undercover. But generally, as someone who also cares about human safety, I just do what people are comfortable doing and what they want to do and hire them to do it. There are so many passionate, dedicated people out there who really do want to expose animal cruelty who are braver than I am, to be honest, because I don't think I would have done that. I don't think I would have gone up to this dog fighting ring with my GoPro and gone to that. Probably like me personally, I wouldn't. But somebody did and people do care enough to do that. That's incredible. What we can do, what I can do as part of Lady Freethinker is we can amplify that and take what they see and expose it and then try and stop it.
Elizabeth: [00:27:28] Yeah, it's powerful. And I mean, the fact that your first one was such an enormous success.
Nina: [00:27:33] It was kind of mind blowing. I mean, honestly, but then you just have to keep doing it because otherwise, what are you going to do? It's like if you have an opportunity to help animals and to help stop their suffering. I don't. I don't know that there's a choice, you just have to do it.
Elizabeth: [00:27:50] You guys are I mean, you are completely global. You there's nowhere you don't go?
Nina: [00:27:56] Absolutely global.
Elizabeth: [00:27:58] Will you talk about that a little bit and how that goes?
Nina: [00:27:59] I think when you campaign for animal protections, you have a lot more leeway to go global because you can research animal laws or even just animal cruelty cases anywhere on the planet and use your voice to speak out against it. There's no border that's preventing you from doing that. But as an activist, I mean, especially now where everything's on social media or some sort of media video or a news article, so many animal cruelty cases are out there. In public view, you can speak out about them and you can make a difference no matter where you live. It's an amazing opportunity that didn't exist when I started as a journalist, there's no way I could have done this right? I know there are a lot of faults with our social media culture and the internet and all that. But I will say the way that it's enabled activists to make a difference around the world is absolutely incredible. I fully took advantage of that and I will continue to fully take advantage of that because we have to.
Elizabeth: [00:29:07] We have to. Have you seen, since you started a shift in laws and in countries that literally had zero awareness?
Nina: [00:29:18] Yes, it's amazing. This time that we're living in, I feel like it's the dawning of the next big social justice movement of our era. That is the animal rights movement. I've seen governments climbing on board, especially in the U.K. I have to say I've seen such tremendous shifts, they're about to ban all elephant captivity. Amazing. Amazing. It's a smaller country, so it's easier there. It's more fractured in the U.S. you have all these states with their different regulations. The U.S. is actually pretty far behind the UK and the EU, unfortunately. Probably because it's so fractured, although I do think that most Americans want to abolish animal cruelty. Most Americans are against factory farming, but we're getting there and the laws are strengthening for all animals. I think when they get stronger for companion animals, that gets people in that sort of mode of thinking that they should be stronger for farm animals and other animals as well. I know a lot of organizations like to focus on farm animals, and we absolutely need that. I believe that if we focus on all animals and go for the low hanging fruit, there will be stronger protections for dogs and cats because it will always be easier to get those. That puts us in a better position to strengthen protections for farm animals and wild animals and all animals. I think we have a very long way to go. It would be nice to be out of a job in two years, but I don't think that's going to happen. But I think that people deep down don't want to. Be responsible for torture of animals, and I think we're going to continue to see these shifts.
Elizabeth: [00:30:59] People don't want to participate in cruelty, that's like one of the beauties of social media. It's just created this awareness that didn't exist 20 years ago.
Nina: [00:31:10] Absolutely.
Elizabeth: [00:31:11] Do you still get shocked? Does anything shock you because you see a lot of cruelty?
Nina: [00:31:14] You know what, I see animal cruelty all day long. Most days, like 12 hours a day, I'm sifting through an investigation or in cases. But, as much of a wall as I've put up every once in a while, every once in a while, they'll be one that just makes me break down. It's like, I thought it was past this, and I'm like no I am not. So yeah, I do. I mean, I don't know if ‘shock’ is quite the right word. Nothing shocks me because I've seen the worst that humanity can do. I believe cruelty surprises me because I know how dark our nature can get. But as far as being personally affected by it, I mean, sometimes I just really honestly break down.
Elizabeth: [00:32:05] I think shock for me, it's shocking of what humans are capable of.
Nina: [00:32:10] Sometimes yeah, I mean, I come from a Jewish family. I have a lot of family killed in the Holocaust. Shocked, no.
Elizabeth: [00:32:21] I mean, you're just immersed in really hard shit, basically. You're like the happiest, like a glowing human being, like just sitting here.
Nina: [00:32:31] Thank you for saying that. I mean, I'm an idealist like, I'm here to change the world. That's what makes me happy, whether I'm celebrating success, that's not what makes me happy. What I do doesn't make me happy. I'm looking to see what I can do. How could I make the world better? I see the potential for a compassionate society and that drives me, and that's idealism. So even though I'm looking at like dogs being tortured all day long, I'm a total idealist. I don't know how.
Elizabeth: [00:33:02] But I think you would have to be or you couldn't keep going, right? Like, how could you?
Nina: [00:33:10] No, I think you're right. I think you're right. How else? How else can you do that?
Elizabeth: [00:33:12] Yeah. What are you guys working on right now?
Nina: [00:33:14] So we just actually released a new investigation into a dog meat auction house in Korea. It's operating illegally because the land is zoned for agriculture like growing crops. They don't have proper waste treatment facilities. So it's illegal for a couple of different reasons. So we're trying to shut it down.
Elizabeth: [00:33:34] When were you in South Korea?
Nina: [00:33:35] I was in South Korea, in 2019, OK. It was my first time. It was a hard trip.
Elizabeth: [00:33:41] Did you go specifically for dogs?
Nina: [00:33:43] Yes. Ben and I went to visit our partners. They have Korean dogs, which are in Gimpo, which is known as the Valley of Dog Meat in South Korea. But I also wanted to see what the dog meat farms look like. I've seen so many videos, so many images. I felt like because it's been such a big part of my life, I was almost obligated to go see it in person. So we did. We investigated a dog meat farm on that visit and it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
Elizabeth: [00:34:13] Well, for people who don't know first, so will you explain, like South Korea is the one country that actually farms dogs?
Nina: [00:34:20] South Korea is the only country in the world that has commercial dog farms. There are other countries who have underground dog meat trains, but that's very different from having large farms with thousands of dogs that are kept in cages, much like our own factory farms. So we went to see them and they were hidden. Our factory farms are, too. You can't book a tour and you can't even see them from the streets.
Elizabeth: [00:34:50] So how'd you get in?
Nina: [00:34:51] Well, we didn't actually get in, but Naomi Kim, who's the founder of Save Korean Dogs and she's our partner in South Korea. She drove us around. She knew of this dog meat farm that was owned by the Dog Farmers Association, and we knew the general vicinity. We were driving down the road. We saw a pile of dog skulls on the corner. Then we started to hear barking and we knew that we were close and we followed the barking noises and eventually ended up there. It was hidden behind a wall and under tarps. But we had a ladder in the back and climbed up the wall and got some footage of that. It was a very hard experience for all of us. I think the hardest thing was this feeling of helplessness. This was in the midst of the Bucknall dog eating days, which are the three hottest days by the lunar calendar of July and August. They're called the dog eating days because those are the three days when mostly old Korean men eat dogs. The younger generations don't participate, but most of the dogs in Korea are eaten during this time, close to a million, probably. So the hardest part was seeing these dogs and knowing how numbered their days were and that there was absolutely nothing that we could do about it. After that trip, we spent I think about a week in Gimpo in the Valley of Dog Meat to do an investigation to help with the sanctuary. And then after that we went to Seoul and like the Seoul portion, was supposed to be like the vacation part of the trip. Honestly I was bawling. It's like a forty five minute cab ride from Gimpo to Seoul the entire time. Like I was bawling, this cab driver was probably like, What just happened?
Elizabeth: [00:36:45] Clearly you did the trip in the wrong order.
Nina: [00:36:49] Exactly. It was pretty hard to have a vacation after that. I'll just say that, yeah, it was really hard. But I'm also really glad that I did it because I feel that if you're going to be an activist and immerse yourself as I have and create your life, so as someone who speaks out against animal cruelty. I do think that you need some firsthand knowledge of it, even though it's hard. So I'm glad that I did it for that reason. And when we got back, I pitched that story to press. We got an article in the Daily Mail about it. We were able to leverage that and raise some awareness of the dog meat trade, so it was worth it.
Elizabeth: [00:37:35] Your husband must really love you. That he goes to the dog meat farms for you.
Nina: [00:37:39] Bless him. He does. Oh, he also got accosted by two people who work for the dog meat firm when they saw what we were doing.
Elizabeth: [00:37:45] Oh yeah, yeah.
Nina: [00:37:49] He goes above and beyond for the organization.
Elizabeth: [00:37:52] What about the sanctuary there?
Nina: [00:37:54] So, Nami rescues dogs from dog meat farms, restaurants, dogs who are going to be slaughtered for meat. She saves them. A lot of these are, you know, not necessarily huge dog farms, but they're raised in someone's yard or outside of a restaurant or something like that. So, yeah, she saves them and she brings them to the sanctuary, and she's flown thousands of them to the U.S. for adoptions. The truth is that change like that has to come from within the culture and there's a part of me that almost feels bad like saying, well, shame on you for eating dog. You can't do that like, you can't do that. But the truth is that most South Koreans don't eat dogs and they want to see this industry end. If I can do my part in helping them achieve that, then yes, I have to do that.
Elizabeth: [00:38:43] I think that's part of what I meant earlier, by looking at other countries and saying, What? What are you doing? I'm like, Well, You're not saying that, obviously, but there is a fine line.
Nina: [00:38:58] Because there is an absolutely fine line. So what I like to do is work with organizations in that country. Any time I have a chance in China, there are a couple of different rescuers that Lady Freethinker supports and works with. Because no, you can't just go preaching to them, saying ‘your practices are bad.’ When American practices are terrible, too. But but if you're protesting animal cruelty globally, including in your own country, yeah, you can say something about it.I mean, you can't get to a point where you're so sensitive that you don't call out cruelty and torture when you see it, whether it's to a human being or to the planet or to an animal. You can't just stay silent, but you have to approach it in the right way.
Elizabeth: [00:39:49] I agree. That's awesome.
Nina: [00:39:50] Some people do it. Some Americans do better.
Elizabeth: [00:39:53] There's a lot of people that do it well, and there's a lot of people who do really badly. It makes it hard for other people.
Nina: [00:40:00] I agree, I agree. I really try to be sensitive to humans and animals. I really do. But my ultimate goal is to end human caused suffering. Right now, I can make the most difference for animals, and that's what I'm going to do.
Elizabeth: [00:40:12] You're making a huge difference.
Nina: [00:40:14] Thank you so much for having me.
Elizabeth: [00:40:16] Nina, you are incredible. Thank you so much for this. It is just an absolute honor to have you here. So thank you.
Nina: [00:40:24] I really appreciate that.
Elizabeth: [00:40:37] To learn more about Nina, about Lady Freethinker, go to our website, SpeciesUnite.com. We will have links to everything. We are on Facebook and Instagram, @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare moment and could do us a favor, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find the show. If you'd like to support the podcast, we greatly appreciate it. We would love it if you'd become a Species Unite member. Go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and click Become a member. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pierce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santana Polky, our intern, Talia Fine and Anna Connor, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful day!
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