S6. E13: Max Rye: The End of Dairy
“…by the way, today, there might be an ick factor associated with it, but there might come a day that people will wonder, why are we drinking other species milks… If you have access to the real thing or the stuff that's in the real thing. I mean, it's these special proteins… these amazing different complex sugars and proteins that are found in human milk that are super valuable.”
- Max Rye
Max Rye spent more than 15 years helping businesses scale with technology. He was the CEO of a Silicon Valley tech company and at the time, had no plans to nor thoughts of being at be at the forefront of transforming the entire global dairy industry.
But, that’s what happened…
He was speaking at Google headquarters in Singapore, when someone from the audience said to him, “I’m looking for milk that doesn’t come from cows and I know that people in San Francisco are making things with cells, why not milk?” That someone was Fengru Lin and she and Max are now the co-founders of Turtle Tree Labs.
Turtle Tree Labs is using cell-based technology to create all kinds of milk, from snow leopard and elephant milk to cow and human milk. And they have big plans for the human milk, bigger than just infant formula.
As you can imagine, human milk is like a superfood with a lot of special proteins and complex sugars that just can’t be found anywhere else.
And Turtle Tree Labs is working around the clock to put it on the market.
The future is here and it’s getting kinder by the day.
Learn More About Turtle Tree Labs
Follow Turtle Tree Labs on Twitter
Transcript:
Max: [00:00:15] By the way, today there might be a nick factor associated with it, but there might come a day that few people will wonder why we are drinking milk from other species. If you have access to the real thing or the stuff that's in the real thing, I mean, it's these special proteins, right? We're talking about these amazing, different complex sugars and proteins that are found in human milk that are super valuable.
Elizabeth: [00:00:45] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. For the months of May, June and July, Species Unite is celebrating plant-based eating with vegan nights. All that really means, as we would love for you to cook dinner for your friends or your family or your neighbor and make it vegan. On our website, we have downloadable ghost packs with recipes, tips and information to make your vegan night all the more fun and better. So, go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and download a host pack. You'll be entered to win one of six, two hundred and seventy five dollar vegan gift baskets that are filled with all sorts of incredible plant-based products. This conversation is with Max Rye. Max spent more than 15 years helping businesses grow with tech. He was a CEO of a Silicon Valley tech company, and he's now CEO and co-founder of Turtle Tree Labs. Turtle Tree Labs is using cell based technology to create all kinds of milk from snow leopard and elephant milk to cow and human milk. And they have big plans for human milk, bigger than just infant formula. As you can imagine, human milk is like a superfood with lots of special proteins and complex sugars that can't be found anywhere else, and Turtle Tree Labs is working around the clock to put it on the market. Max, thank you so much for being here today. It's really exciting to have you.
Max: [00:02:40] Thank you so much, Elizabeth. I'm really glad to be here.
Elizabeth: [00:02:43] Like I was telling you, I'm beyond excited about everything that you are doing at Turtle Tree. But I want to start with how this even started and how you got into this world? Because it hasn't really been that long that this has even been like an option on the planet, right?
Max: [00:03:04] You're right. To be honest, I had no idea. If you asked me 10 years ago, I had no idea I was going to be in this industry. But what I did know 10 years ago is that there was something tremendously wrong with climate change, with sustainability, with what's going on in the food system. I knew something was wrong, but I was too dug in as a CEO of a tech company at that time. I've been in business for more than 15 years running tech companies. Then at some point I had this opportunity where I could finally take an exit out of my previous company. It was an amazing time because that gave me the opportunity to finally reinvent myself. I went back to school, I did a little bit of my own research. Being from the Bay Area, I have the opportunity to also be around all these cool folks, these people in the sail space and so forth. So, I had no idea that I'd be able to participate as one of the leaders in the space to help lead this side. I had the opportunity to go to Singapore, gave a talk on sustainability at Google headquarters, and that's actually where I ran into our CEO fan group. She was just out in the crowd. She worked for Google and she said, “Listen, I'm looking for milk. I want to find a way to make milk, but without having to get it from cows. Without doing this process where you're hurting animals and I know you people in San Francisco have got weird stuff going on with cells, so I know there's a way to make this happen.”
Elizabeth: [00:04:27] That's seriously what the conversation was.
Max: [00:04:30] That's how it was because I was on stage talking about Memphis, talking about all of these other cell agriculture companies. Finding cool, different ways to be able to produce meat and seafood without having to hurt the animals or without having to go through the animals. The first thing that popped in her head was like, Hey, listen, I want to make milk because she had this hobby of making cheese, but she just couldn't find good raw milk anywhere. So that was how it first started and after about several lunches later and bringing in several scientists into this conversation, we said, “Listen, let's put the money into this. Let's try to do something with this.” That's how we first started this entire business.
Elizabeth: [00:05:12] That's amazing. It's also like the necessity thing, right? She needed the milk and you were like, Let's do it, which is usually how the best things come about, I think. So when you first started, it was like dairy, milk, cow's milk. Was that the plan?
Max: [00:05:26] Yeah, our first focus is let's do dairy milk. Dairy Milk was the main focus at that time. But what we realized very quickly is, why are we replicating a cow's milk if we have this amazing technology to make any milk in the world? So of course, a lot of feedback that we got from the industry was, Hey, listen, you guys can make human milk. There's a massive opportunity here, and we'd love to help you. If you have to make this stuff, we can help you guys scale it and take this to market and these days, the vast majority of all our work is around human milk.
Elizabeth: [00:06:00] Oh, it is? I thought you were still doing cows.
Max: [00:06:02] We are. We're doing bovine. We're doing sheep, camels and goat milk. So we're able to do all of these different milks. But what we've seen is the bigger opportunity for the company because we're business folks as well. We're thinking, Well, how can we commercialize and build a very strong revenue base along the way as we get to this long term goal of ours. Human milk proteins, complex sugars, all of these valuable things that can be found in human milk are worth their weight in gold. So that's a massive opportunity for us, and we're working very closely with the industry folks on that. A lot of these things that can be found in human milk, like these complex sugars, there's a lot of work done around how helpful they are for adult nutrition, for our gut health and for our brain health. UC Davis has done tremendous work. Uc Davis and UC San Diego, it's a tremendous work around showing how much more valuable human breast milk is or the stuff that's in there.
Elizabeth: [00:07:00] When I was learning about you and about Turtle Tree, I was thinking that because I was going to talk to you, if you can make human milk, why wouldn't we drink that right? I mean, you wouldn't get like a container of it, would you?
Max: [00:07:15] Right, right. You're right. I mean, and by the way, today there might be a big factor associated with it. But there might come a day that you people will wonder why we are drinking other species. If you have access to the real thing or the stuff that's in the real thing. I mean, it's these special proteins, right, that we're talking about, these amazing, different complex sugars and proteins that are found in human milk that are super valuable.
Elizabeth: [00:07:41] What would they do? How would they be valuable for adults?
Max: [00:07:45] I mean, right now, lactoferrin is becoming all the rage. It's super valuable. It has even been shown that it helps fight off COVID. Even as a matter of fact, it's quite possible that it can be found in cow's milk. What they're doing is they're pulling this out of cow's milk, around zero point one three eight milligrams or so forth per liter of milk, which is really any you have to have to yank out quite a bit of it. Now we can produce human versions of that. The reason why the human version is better for you is it's designed for us, but the health benefits around it are also there. So, when it gets in your stomach or in your gut and so forth, it's got special properties because it's a human version to be able to be better for you. This is why the human version of this stuff is better and it can be more accessible as well. Down the line we wouldn't have to yank this out of cow's milk.
Elizabeth: [00:08:38] Would it be used more like a drug or would it be in food?
Max: [00:08:41] Oh, it would be in food. I mean, we're all about food as medicine and medicine and food. We think that that's where the future is, eating products that are better for your health and better for your gut.
Elizabeth: [00:08:53] Well, I would imagine that the farther down the line that you get with this and the more that it's scaled and out in the world, the more benefits of human milk to humans would probably start just showing up, right?
Max: [00:09:07] Yeah, Elizabeth, I wish I could say that we're the first ones in the world to actually talk about this. But some of the biggest companies in the world, including DSM Christian Hansen. There's a lot of stuff going on around this space, and they're already able to prove out how much better this stuff is for you. There just hasn't been any way to scale it up, and that's where Turtle Tree comes in, and we can actually use some of our cool tech to produce this stuff and be a big part of this global movement.
Elizabeth: [00:09:35] I didn't even think about that, but that is absolutely incredible and really exciting. So let's go back for a second for people who don't know, you can make milk in a lab. I watched some of the YouTube videos because I've talked to other people who are making things in labs and are so arrogant and still it's been really hard for me to picture it for some reason. Could you just kind of take people through the process?
Max: [00:10:01] Sure. I think the good thing is I'm not a scientist myself, so I have to explain this in a way that I can talk to other folks about it. What we're doing is we're recreating the same environment that happens inside of any mammal. So you take these mammary cells, these are cells that can be found in human breasts or in a cow udder. We take the cells and we put them in a metal chamber where they interact with the same environment. Say the same vitamins and nutrients that can be found there and they actually go through a process of lactation. They actually recreate the same environment that happens inside of that animal. At the end of the day, your end result is just a secreted product. You're not eating the cells, which is great. There's a huge regulatory benefit there when you're not eating the cells that are producing this stuff. As long as we can show to the regulatory folks, this is the same identical stuff that comes out of any animal. We're actually in pretty good shape there.
Elizabeth: [00:11:00] Where did the cells come from?
Max: [00:11:02] Our initial cell lines came from donations from various different folks, and we're not allowed to have any identification around those that there's a letter, there's regulatory stuff around that as well. But even once we get past that point, there's a significant amount of re-engineering that goes on. There's no individuality to any of these cells. They get mixed with a lot of other cells and so forth. What we're really looking for is the best performing cells, at the end of the day the best performing cells are the ones we end up using to do the work right.
Elizabeth: [00:11:35] So do you have tastings like with cell-based milk? You know, there's always tasting, right? What happens with somebody’s milk?
Max: [00:11:43] Later this summer, we are actually going to have an event. We were hoping to have one last year when COVID hit, it was just a really bad situation for everyone. But this summer, we're hoping to have something in San Francisco, so we're going to be showcasing several different products, everything from butter and chocolate to yogurt, different things that have our stuff in it. Our technology is built into it and we're going to have a tasting where some of our investors will be there. We'll have some media folks there as well. But that's going to be quite exciting for the company.
Elizabeth: [00:12:19] Is it easier to do dairy or milk than meat? Is it different?
Max: [00:12:25] When creating the cells, first of all, we don't have to worry about scaffolding, right.The scaffolding is a structure of meat and so forth. This is a fluid product, so that's one benefit there. Number two, one of the regulatory issues around cell based meat is they still need time, usually to showcase the efficacy and safety around the tissue itself in the cells. In our situation, the cells are not the product, they are secreting out the product. And so there's a huge benefit there for this space. So as long as you can show the bio similarity or identical nature of that protein or so forth, you're in good shape. So that's why you're able to produce a lot of these dairy products using cell based technologies. Much, much easier, I guess, than some of the other technologies.
Elizabeth: [00:13:12] So does it scale faster too?
Max: [00:13:15] We're looking at scaling up some of our products early next year, meaning some of our early products will be able to scale up as early as that time. So yes, I think the scalability and it also just depends on what you're taking to market. For us, it might be certain proteins first, certain human milk proteins, followed by complex sugars. So you're also able to break up that milk and look at the super high value stuff first and take it to market. Then at some point when you can scale the entire fluid milk product and get the price down low enough, you can even take the glass of milk out.
Elizabeth: [00:13:49] What about the baby formula? How will that work and what would that look like?
Max: [00:13:53] We do have some ongoing collaborations going on with them now. So It works in a very similar way. They would look at cutting back on cow milk proteins and using our proteins instead, and same thing with complex sugars.
Elizabeth: [00:14:06] So they're on your team. I mean, they're like behind this. You're not a threat?
Max: [00:14:10] Yeah, if they do it. We believe if we're going to make that global impact and we're going to get a lot less cows being used. Then we need to supplement with better products, not just a better price, but better products where if folks go to the store, it doesn't make sense to buy something that's coming from cows, I mean, especially if you're feeding your baby, you want something as close to the real thing as possible. So, that's where we see the future with these folks.
Elizabeth: [00:14:38] It'll change the world for humans everywhere. I don't think many people are a big fan of the infant formula, as it is, and there's just been no way to make it better until now.
Max: [00:14:48] There's a lot of folks that have been doing tremendous work around this space, around the human milk components. I believe in the next five or 10 years. It'll just be a massive shift, I believe.
Elizabeth: [00:15:00] In the same way that the infant formula industry is getting behind you, is the dairy industry?
Max: [00:15:06] Several of our key investors are coming from dairy companies, and in the early days the companies themselves did not support it, so they themselves came in personally. That's how excited they are about the space.
Elizabeth: [00:15:20] You're kidding?
Max: [00:15:23] No, absolutely. We had a few investors who were actually the head of the dairy company. The company itself decided they're not going to do it, but they were so excited about the space they came in themselves.
Elizabeth: [00:15:34] So then did the companies follow? They know where things are heading right?
Max: [00:15:39] They understand where things are heading and the closer we get to this, the more milestones that we hit. Not just us, but this entire industry. I think it's waking up all the giants, all the Cargill's of the world, all the titans. They're all getting involved because nobody wants to be left behind.
Elizabeth: [00:15:56] Turtle Tree is based in Singapore, and all the good things are happening in Singapore right now when it comes to regulation and cell eggs. Will you talk about that a little bit and why that's such a good spot to be in?
Max: [00:16:10] Even before this COVID situation. Singapore was already promoting this plan to have 30 percent of its food coming locally. Because it imports everything into their country it is a small island nation, and if many people haven't been there, it's like the Wakanda of the region. It's a very futuristic city, but everything is imported and they felt a little insecure. Well, COVID hit, and they felt even more insecure because the supply chains were wrecked and there were times where there was no food on the shelves and people were panicking. This is not something the country wants to ever happen again. They made it a huge priority that they will do whatever it takes to make sure that they build that sustainability angle and food security angle into everything that they do. If you know how Singapore works, when they get behind something, every agency gets behind it and the entire country, even citizens, get behind it and so forth supporting it. So that's what you've seen. You've seen ‘Just’ come out with their chicken there.
Elizabeth: [00:17:10] Did that happen during the pandemic? The ‘Just Chicken’ regularly coming out?
Max: [00:17:15] Yeah absolutely. It happened during the pandemic, but there's also many other things as well around the cell space that's happening or a regulatory approval. The Singapore Food Agency, which is the FDA equivalent, works very closely with companies like ours and would say, “Ok, you guys have to be cool. How can we help you show the safe way and let's get it to market? So these types of things are very unique in Singapore that I haven't seen anywhere else.
Elizabeth: [00:17:39] Is it happening right now? They're trying to get you out faster.
Max: [00:17:42] Absolutely. Absolutely. They are amazing people there.
Elizabeth: [00:17:46] What does that look like, in terms of when do you think you'll be on the market in Singapore?
Max: [00:17:52] One thing I can tell you is over the last two months, they rolled out a new ISO standard that even cell based milk proteins will now be considered and labeled as a natural milk protein. That is huge if you're taking anything to market there in the entire APAC region, with Singapore leading it first. That's what it looks like. So they're the first to adopt it. As we go to market next, coming up this Q1 of next year, our first products will have that labeling of being a natural milk product.
Elizabeth: [00:18:23] That is huge. Congratulations.
Max: [00:18:25] Thank you and of course, they import everything, right? So there's no lobbyists really for them to fight. There's no jobs that have been displaced. So, there are different intricacies there that allow this to happen. But at the end of the day, it's happening. When you start this type of momentum, all the other countries will have to follow, right?
Elizabeth: [00:18:46] Sure. What's been the reaction to the ‘Just chicken’ like in Singapore locally?
Max: [00:18:50] People are proud. They're super proud.They get to be bigger, to participate in this revolution and this new world. Yeah, I think people are being very supportive. I know that ‘Just chicken’ keeps running out of stock, usually because people are ordering it as fast as they can get to market, even at a crazy premium. I would think that twenty five dollars for two chicken nuggets or something like that. It didn't matter. They bought it up.
Elizabeth: [00:19:16] They're the first in the world of a whole new world, right? This will be the food system at some point or a huge part of it. So it's got to be really exciting even to be just in a restaurant where any of that's being served. I read that not only can you really kind of customize and make different kinds of milks, but you can make milk without cholesterol or less cholesterol or lactose free, you could really specialize to fit certain diets.
Max: [00:19:45] Yeah, if you look at milk today, it's already something that is highly fractionated, right? There's a lot of fractionation that goes on, and this type of customization that we're able to do in the future is just taking it to a whole nother level.
Elizabeth: [00:19:57] When I first learned about you guys, A sol Peter told me about you and we were talking about something else, and he said, “No, no, there's this company in Singapore, and they can make baby snow leopard milk and elephant milk.” So I told a friend I have who's an elephant vet, she works all over Asia. I told her and she was like, “Oh my gosh, that's going to change the world for all these orphaned elephants.”
Max: [00:20:20] You are absolutely right, and listen, this is a part of our Turtle Tree foundation. One thing that we did right from the get go, is we set up a foundation called the Turtle Tree Foundation, and its mission is really to be able to provide milk for endangered species and for animals who cannot access it. This is super valuable and important, we believe, as a company to use this technology for good, and you're right, baby elephants are one of the unfortunate situations out there. For example, in Sumatra, a lot of the elephants get poached and baby elephants end up in orphanages and they die. Many of them just don't have enough mother's milk there, and you just can't replace it with callous milk or so forth. There's just not the same stuff. This is something that we're very excited about. We are building out cell lines for elephant milk. As well as, of course, very similar situations with snow leopards, when snow leopards are in captivity and attacking their cubs, and they shouldn't be in captivity in the first place. But this is an unfortunate situation. And so the baby cubs end up actually being neglected and can't get those nutritional stuff that comes from mom. So, these are some of the things that we want to be able to help with as well.
Elizabeth: [00:21:34] It's really cool that you're doing that, it's awesome.
Max: [00:21:38] It's a technology platform, and if we can use some of it for good or in other areas like this, this is something that we need to be able to do.
Elizabeth: [00:21:45] I ask anybody who's anywhere in future food when outside of Singapore, when will people be able to be a part of this? Like just regular everyday people?
Max: [00:21:57] I personally am a very optimistic person. If anybody knows me, they know that I'm always super excited about that. I think it could happen as early as the end of the next year. It could be something that people will have access to, and when I say that, I'm talking about a lot of human milk proteins, complex sugars and a number of other things that we can do. We'll be able to hit the market.
Elizabeth: [00:22:19] It does feel like since I've learned about a lot of this. People were saying, even a couple of years ago, the numbers were showing that the costs are coming down and that things will develop years and years from now. All those things have shrunk quite a bit? Right?
Max: [00:22:34] I think just two months ago. I'm not going to say who, but a head of a plant based company was saying it will be 2035 before we see any cell based meat product. Then all of a sudden a few months later, they rolled out a cell based chicken in Singapore. So you're absolutely right. Things are happening faster than people realize and that the tech world, right? I come from the same situation. We always thought, Oh, it'll be 30 years before this happens, then two years later, there's a breakthrough and it's on the market.
Elizabeth: [00:23:02] It's great stuff. Max, thank you for this and thank you for what you're doing. I mean, this is going to solve a lot of problems on this planet for a lot of people, animals, and the planet.
Max: [00:23:14] Yeah, thank you, Elizabeth. I think that's the way business should be in the future. It's got to be a win-win situation and you feel better doing it. Our entire team is excited and we feel like we're making a difference in this world.
Elizabeth: [00:23:37] To learn more about Max and to learn about Turtle Tree Labs. Go to our website www.SpeciesUnite.com. We will have links to everything. We are on Facebook and Instagram, @Species Unite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, please rate review, subscribe to Species Unite on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find the show and to support Species Unite, which we would greatly appreciate. Go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and click Donate. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pierce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santina Polky and Anna Connor, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.
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