S5. E19: Jill Robinson: Saving Bears from a Lifetime of Torture
“…I just remember walking around this room in total shock and then backing into a cage and feeling something touch my shoulder and realizing, ‘Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve come too close,’ and thinking I was going to be hurt. Then, as I turned around [I saw] what had touched me was the bear’s paw through the bars of the cage.
“She just had her paw there and was holding it out. And I did something ridiculously stupid. I took her paw, because it was there, reaching out and she just squeezed my fingers. That's all she did. She just rhythmically squeezed my fingers. And I just looked into her eyes and I just knew it was one of those amazing moments that you can hardly describe.
“Because you just know at that point, everything in your life is going to change. Well, indeed, that’s exactly what happened.”
- Jill Robinson
Jill Robinson has spent nearly 30 years of her life fighting to end bear bile farming, one of the world’s darkest industries that most people have never heard of.
She is widely recognized as the world’s leading authority on bear bile farming and is the founder and CEO of Animals Asia, an organization that has been rescuing bears since 1994 and is devoted to ending the entire bear bile industry. They are one of the few organizations in the world that is close to reaching the goal that they originally set out to achieve.
Jill is one of the heroes of our lifetime and this spent with her was an honor and a privilege. I hope that I hope you are as amazed, inspired and completely transformed as I was.
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Transcript:
Jill: [00:00:00] And I just remember walking around this room, in total shock. Then backing into a cage and feeling something touch my shoulder and realizing, Oh my gosh, I’ve come too close. Thinking I was going to be hurt. As I turned around, what had touched me was the bear's paw through the bars of the cage, and she just had her paw there, just holding it out and I did something ridiculously stupid. I took her paw because it was there. It was just reaching out and she just squeezed my fingers. That's all she did. She just rhythmically squeezed my fingers and I just looked into her eyes. I just knew it was one of those amazing moments that you can hardly describe because you just know at that point everything in your life is going to change and indeed, that's exactly what happened.
Elizabeth: [00:00:56] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. We have a favor to ask if you like today's episode and you have a spare minute, could you please rate and review Species Unite on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts? It really helps people to find the show. This conversation is with Jill Robinson. Jill has spent more than 30 years of her life fighting to end one of the darkest, most hidden industries on the planet, bear bile farming. Jill’s organization Animals Asia is close to reaching the goal that they set out to achieve, to end bear bile farms. Today we're going to find out how they got there. Jill, thank you so much for being here today.
Jill: [00:01:56] Thank you, Elizabeth. It's wonderful to be talking with you and sharing our work and showing off a little bit. It’s fantastic.
Elizabeth: [00:02:03] I love it. I would love to go way back and talk about, was there any foreshadowing to like this becoming your life? I know you grew up in the UK, but were there animals? Was that part of your life?
Jill: [00:02:15] Oh yeah. I mean, I've loved animals before I could even say the word animal. You know, my mum died when my sister and I were babies, so my auntie and uncle helped to bring us up as well. My auntie always used to say that if we were in the street, she would have to suddenly grab me because if I saw a dog or a cat across the road, I'd be tearing off to go and stroke them. Growing up, I worked in catteries when I was at school and at the local vet clinic and just anything to be around animals. It's strange because my father, when we went back to live with him, didn't really want us to have animals. He wasn't a complete animal nut like I was. We finally convinced him to let us have a cat, I think when I was about 12 years old, my sister and I. It was just the best thing ever, and we adored that cat. So, yeah, it's been a big part of my life, that's for sure.
Elizabeth: [00:03:05] Was your plan to go into this type of work or? What was the trajectory of getting you kind of in this world and working with animals?
Jill: [00:03:14] I definitely wanted to work with animals as well. It was really strange because, you know, I cut my teeth at the local vet clinic from when I was about 16 after school and in school holidays and things. I absolutely loved it and I knew that that's what I wanted to do. But then I flunked physics and chemistry at school, and so I knew that I was never going to be a vet and my father didn't want me to be a vet either. He wanted my sister and I to be secretaries because he always said the world revolves around paper and you'll always get a job. So my hopes were a bit dashed, I have to be honest and I did become a secretary. But then I moved to Hong Kong in nineteen eighty five with my then husband, who was an airline pilot. I was working in television before and I thought, Yeah, that might be quite nice. I'll see what Hong Kong has to offer, for radio or TV. I wasn't really inspired. I went for a couple of interviews and just didn't like, you know what I was hearing and seeing. Then one day, as I was looking over the wall of my house, I saw someone walking his cat on the beach and I thought, Gosh, that's really bizarre. You know, a man with a cat on a beach. I just waved and we got talking. Then his wife came down and it turned out he worked for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, and I'd always supported IFAW back in England. So we just became friends, and I just said, any time you'd like any help, I'm happy to volunteer. So I started volunteering. Then he and his wife left Hong Kong a few years later and I took over this job. That's as they say history. I became the Asia representative for IFAW.
Elizabeth: [00:04:51] What were some of the issues that IFAW was working on in Asia at the time?
Jill: [00:04:56] Yeah, a lot of the live animal markets, you know, I was doing a lot of undercover investigations in the Philippines, South Korea, China predominantly. Looking at the cat and dog trade, looking at the use of different species in traditional You’d see these dogs going into hospitals and disabled centers long before that notion had ever reached Asia. It was complete, oh my goodness, shock, actually. When I was phoning up the hospitals and, you know, suggesting to them, could I bring a dog along to cheer your patients up? Just getting the phone put down time and time again because they couldn't believe what we were suggesting.
Elizabeth: [00:05:37] Would some say yes?
Jill: [00:05:39] One, finally. The matron of the Duchess of Kent Children's Hospital, she said, I've heard a little bit about animal therapy. Let's give it a try. You have one hour in the garden with one dog, and that's all it took. You know, Max, my old golden retriever, I just thought, Oh, you can do this Max. He was just bombproof. He wouldn't even know how to raise his lip in anger. You know, he was just the most beautiful soul. I knew I knew that he would carry the program and it would sail and indeed it did. We walked into that hospital very, very nervously, or I was nervous, Max was fine. They wheeled out the children. There were paraplegic children. There were kids in wheelchairs. It was really, you know, kind of eye-opening to see this. Then Max went over to this boy in a bed who was obviously very badly disabled, and Max just rose up and put his paws on the boy's bed. This boy's face just lit up, and it was the most wonderful thing to see. The South China Morning Post was there taking some pictures and the program was born. The next day the phone was ringing off the hook from volunteers wanting to volunteer their dogs from other hospitals wanting similar visits. We ultimately ended up in seven countries across Asia with Dr. Dog, and it's still growing from strength to strength.
Elizabeth: [00:06:56] It's got to be changing the way a lot of cultures look at dogs.
Jill: [00:07:01] That's exactly why I started it, Elizabeth. Of Course it is, you know, in this neck of the woods where, of course, you know, forever dogs and cats have been seen as food rather than friends. I just felt if we can connect the public with this incredible species, you know, we can hopefully steer away from looking at them as consumption dogs. That indeed has been sort of what's been happening and especially in China. You know, the program has just mushroomed there. It's just lovely to see, especially in the south, where dog and cat eating has been very prevalent. I don't know if you do know, but in May of last year, dogs and by default, cats, were taken off the livestock list of China, which means now that it's totally illegal for dogs and cats to be sold as food for the table. I just really think that Animals Asia with the programs that we have, not just Dr. Dog, but things like Professor Paws, Dogs going into schools to teach children how to read with our investigations that showed the dogs were stolen in one hundred percent of cases from people's homes for the food table. The industry is so black, so illegal. Working in the community, with the government officials across the country, working on conferences, public and media campaigns. You know, all these different components I think we’re a great part of leading to that decision to take dogs and cats off of the dinner table by the government.
Elizabeth: [00:08:24] Across the whole country it's illegal now?
Jill: [00:08:27] Countrywide, illegal now yeah. But enforcement is the big key now, and there's going to be pushback from the industry, there's no question. I do want to sadly say that a few days ago, my own dog in Chengdu was poisoned. Ryan, our fantastic team director, our team there, you know, I’ve got two dogs there and they look after them when I'm away. Of course, I haven't been there since last February because of COVID. So they've become so close to these two dogs. Ryan was walking to Ojai and she just went down to pick something up. She's a real scavenger. He realized and he sort of took the lead, but it was too late. The poison had taken hold, and she died really quickly because of poison bait for the meat industry. This is really, really close to home, as well as just breaking your heart to see still so many dogs being killed, now that the industry is illegal. We've really got a big job on our hands with enforcement, and we're determined to see it through.
Elizabeth: [00:09:28] I'm so sorry.
Jill: [00:09:29] Well, it's ironic because she was rescued from the meat trade, from one of the live animal markets by myself and by a few members of our team. When we went to do an investigation in the south of China. So it's 10 years to the month that we rescued her and the industry, even though it's illegal now, claimed her. It's just gutting, absolutely gutting that something like that has happened, and it's shocked every single one of us. As I say, we're determined that she's not going to die in vain. Everyone's so angry, so angry because it was so sudden and so vicious. You know, this drug is called one, two, three down, in Chinese. It's well known, because it's that quick.
Elizabeth: [00:10:07] Is it common? The one, two, three down?
Jill: [00:10:10] Yeah. Yeah, it is. But the point, you know, it's illegal now to kill, to slaughter dogs and cats for food. So it's illegal. So it got her after all the regulations came in, it got her. Someone is still out there, lots of people are still out there doing it. The whole thing is enforcement.
Elizabeth: [00:10:31] So they drop the poison and then the dogs die and they come and pick up the dogs.
Jill: [00:10:36] Absolutely. That's exactly what happens. I mean, I'm sure you're thinking that toxic meat is entering the community. That's exactly what we've been telling the authorities for years and years and years that poisonous dog meat is going into the food chain of China. Obviously, you know, the compromise is they're unthinkable. I just feel so desperately sorry for the team as well, especially Ryan, who was walking her when it happened, you know, and had to pick her up and run to the hospital. It was just dreadful.
Elizabeth: [00:11:05] Oh, Jill, I'm so sorry. I just can't even fathom.
Jill: [00:11:09] I know, thank you. We're doing lots of programs with the local community because again, we're not just protecting dogs and cats, but children that could be picking up this bait and just preventing other people's dogs from being stolen and brutally killed.
Elizabeth: [00:11:23] I would think now that dogs and cats are becoming, you know, it's changing so much culturally how people are looking at dogs and cats. There's got to be a huge majority that are not pro the dog and cat meat trade.
Jill: [00:11:36] Oh, huge, huge, Elizabeth. I mean, there's a real animal boom now in China with cats and dogs, people love them. There's over 200 local animal welfare groups now in China. When I first began there, there was one, there's a real groundswell of support. People love their dogs and cats, really love them. This is why it's so heartbreaking that for years and years they've been stolen from loving family homes for the meat table. This is not the first time that it's happened in our village. It's happened multiple times, multiple, multiple, multiple times. It's only now that we can really get the local police involved in this because it is absolutely illegal to be doing it.
Elizabeth: [00:12:16] That is incredible in itself, though, that there's a law.
Jill: [00:12:19] Well, it's not law, but there’s regulation. So, you know, at least it's, as I say, the lawyer with whom we work in China says that it's absolutely illegal now. So, you know, we've got the mechanism to be able to act now. You know, we're obviously putting up billboards now in the local villages to warn everybody because what we're hearing is it's outside people coming in through the village, there's no one in the village that's going to risk that. Do you know what I mean? The villages are very close knit in China, but it's someone from another place coming in now to do this.
Elizabeth: [00:12:53] I'm just so sorry about your dog.
Jill: [00:12:55] I know. Thank you. Well, as we say, if we could do anything to cherish her memory and do things in her honor, you know that really, really move this forward more in terms of the law and everything and all the regulations in China. That's what we're doing now and to protect the community and children, not only the dogs and cats.
Elizabeth: [00:13:15] How long were you at IFAW?
Jill: [00:13:17] Oh, goodness, about 12 years.
Elizabeth: [00:13:19] Are you doing anything with bears at all at IFAW?
Jill: [00:13:21] Yes. Yes, it was. It was in nineteen ninety three when I had a call from a friend of mine who was a journalist and he'd just come back from a bear bile farm and he just said, Oh my goodness, Jill, you need to go along and see this. It's just awful. I'd heard a little bit about the practice of bear farming, but I really knew nothing about it, and I definitely didn't know anything about Asiatic black bears that were being farmed for their bile. I grabbed a couple of friends and we went across the border. We joined a tour group and we went to one of the bear farms in the south of the country and just came across something you'd see in a horror show. You know, it was just appalling. We found the steps down into the basement where we knew the bears were being kept and milked for their bile. There was no one around. We just took our chances with our cameras to go into this room and found bears in tiny wire cages, with six inch metal catheters protruding from gaping holes in their abdomen. They had skulls running along the length of their bodies from where they were obviously thrown into the cage bars. Many of them had teeth cut back deliberately and claws at the end of their politics cut away so that their claws wouldn't grow. So all this to make them less dangerous to milk their bile. Oh goodness. I mean, some of them were blind. They had wounds over their bodies. It was just a catalog of abuse. I just remember walking around this room in total shock and then backing into a cage and feeling something touch my shoulder and realizing, Oh my gosh, you know, be close and thinking I was going to be hurt. As I turned around, what had touched me was the bear's paw through the bars of the cage, and she just had her paw there, just holding it out. I did something ridiculously stupid. I took her paw because it was there. It was just reaching out and she just squeezed my fingers. That's all she did. She just rhythmically squeezed my fingers and I just looked into her eyes. I just knew it was one of those amazing moments that you can hardly describe, because you just know, at that point, everything in your life is going to change. Indeed, that's exactly what happened. I kind of had a feeling I'd never see her again. I left that farm so sad, so devastated. Yet knowing that this was what I wanted to do with my life ,is to just change this and get bears out of these circumstances.
Elizabeth: [00:15:52] For people who have never heard of the bear bile industry. Will you just explain what it is and why they're being farmed for bear bile in the first place?
Jill: [00:16:01] It's a practice across the Asia continent where there's thousands of bears. Thousands and thousands of bears are kept in tiny wire cages, as I just described, and literally built from their gallbladder. Their bile is extracted from their gallbladders through very invasive means. Either surgical mutilation, so cutting a hole into their abdomens and gall bladders, obviously under anesthetic but very crude anesthetic, and bringing the gallbladder to the front of the abdomen and using the gallbladder there. And as I say, then creating a hole so that bile freely drips out. This is called the free drip method. But obviously that wound is trying to heal the whole time. So every day that wound is punctured so that bile then drips out. There's been other methods, as I said before, like catheters, metal catheters and latex catheters implanted into the gall bladders. But those are no longer allowed in China. Over in Vietnam, they extract the bile via the use, believe it or not, of an ultrasound machine, something that's produced to heal people, to help people, to locate the presence of things inside your body so that you can then have proper medical treatment. But in this case, the ultrasound is used by the farmers to locate the position of the gallbladder. Then once they think they've found it on the ultrasound, they then get a six inch spinal needle and they'll put the needle into the gallbladder, or they'll try and find the gallbladder. Then once they're assured that they think they've found it, they'll take the needle out, they'll lick it aif it tastes bitter, they know they've reached the bile because bile is a bitter tasting, fluid substance. Then they'll put the needle back and then they'll pump out about 100 mill of bile. So this constant stabbing, even though you might think a needle into the gallbladder is better than creating a hole or a fistula, in fact, perpetual stabbing because you're not always going to reach the gallbladder, you go into the spleen, you go into the liver. So this constant stabbing of a needle also shows severe pathology ultimately in the Bears.
Elizabeth: [00:18:11] I'm sure, and just so much pain.
Jill: [00:18:12] Yes, not to mention the pain.
Elizabeth: [00:18:14] Will you explain why? Bear bile, like what is it used for and how much it actually does work?
Jill: [00:18:21] Yeah. Well, this is the thing. This is why Animals Asia just doesn't disparage traditional medicine because there's so many things that do work. We know that from the myriad of herbal alternatives, for example, of which there are many to bear bile and also synthetic alternatives to. Bear bile itself contains something called UDCA or urso deoxy folic acid, and it's been known for a great many years that UDCA really does have efficacious effects for helping things like chronic liver complaints, gallstones, in traditional Chinese medicine terms, it's a cold medicine used to treat heat related illnesses so like yin yang effect, if you like. So like high fevers and temperatures, redness or eyes again, chronic liver complaints even in the West now, bear bile has been synthesized since the 1950s because it is so efficacious. It's not using bears anymore, of course, but it's done synthetically in a lab. Again, it's been sold by the ton across the world synthetic bear bile, which isn't from bears.
Elizabeth: [00:19:27] Right? Is there a resistance to using synthetic or is it just not available?
Jill: [00:19:33] No, it's very much available, very much available. Especially in China, there's a lot of synthetic udca that's consumed in China. But there's also the great belief that something coming from a bear must have the magic of a bear, if you like, and perhaps even more so if the bear is wild. This is why the government first brought in bear bile farming in the early nineteen eighties because they figured that before bears would be killed for their whole gall bladders, they were trying to conserve the species by farming them. But you know, this sort of well-intentioned initiative then went terribly wrong because bear farmers were obviously then supplementing their farms with the wild bears. Of course, the lifespan of these bears, many of them will die very quickly as a result of disease because of the compromises to their body and the mutilations. So it's still seeing bears that are taken from the wild for their whole gall bladders now today. But I guess, you know, the good news is that in Vietnam, the traditional medicine association there pledged to end all prescription and sale of bear bile by the end of last year, by Twenty Twenty. Animals Asia also signed an agreement with the Vietnam government in two thousand seventeen to end bear bile farming once and for all by twenty twenty two. So we've got some really fantastic agreements in place now. And yes, COVID has delayed things, so we probably won't rescue every single bear by twenty twenty two. But we're certainly going to make a great big dent because we rescued nearly 200 in Vietnam already.
Elizabeth: [00:21:07] That's enormous. Do you know where all the bears are, where all the farms are?
Jill: [00:21:11] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the good thing about Vietnam is that we've got such a fantastic buy-in from the Vietnam government, from the authorities there, they 100 percent want bear farming to end. So of course, they have a tally of the beds across the country. We know now there's just over 400 bears that are left, and so we've made a commitment to build another sanctuary because we've already got one in China, one in Vietnam, and now we're going to build another one in Vietnam to rescue 300 bears. There are other NGOs in the country as well, that are rescuing bears. So we'll take the lion's share. We'll take the 300. With the other hundred that will then go to, particularly two NGOs, we think. Then also, of course, there's going to be a mortality rate as well, you know, as we're rescuing those bears, too. So we absolutely think that, you know, as I say, not far off from twenty twenty two, the industry will be done in Vietnam. It’s something to celebrate when we actually reach a goal for which we were founded, so we're really pleased.
Elizabeth: [00:22:15] That is incredible. Let's go back to the nineties for a moment because before this, what's happening now, you're at this bear bile farm, your first one, and you say, I'm going to change this. So you go back to Hong Kong and then what do you do? How does this happen?
Jill: [00:22:32] Good question. You know, the first thing I did was to understand about bear bile because I just didn't have a clue. I was really, I think, like so many people willing to write it off as a quack medicine and the more I read of traditional medicine books and the more doctors that I spoke to. I got a real sharp, short shock, you know, because, you know, they were telling me, No, it really, really does work. As I've just explained, there is some substance behind that. So first of all, it was a case of really just talking with the doctors and them understanding that you don't need a bear for this, for this type of medicine and herbs will do the job just as well. So that was a real relief that no one was going to die for the lack of bear bile. Then it was really sort of working on public education programs and getting sort of deep within the industry to understand more and to be able to try and provide persuasive arguments. Although we've made, you know, a reasonable sort of dent, I would say, there's still a long way to go. Because bear bile farming is still legal in China, it's a complicated issue. I will say that. So there's things that we are doing now to try and instill the trust of the government in China, for example, by talking about protecting black bears. So it's just really building up trust and confidence and then just talking more and more about the industry and seeing what we can do to try and deal with the issue there. But as I say, Vietnam is very much a springboard for us because we've got the agreement from the government there, we've got the local community support, we've got the local traditional medicine community support as well. It's a great step forward. It's obviously then going to set an example for other countries to follow, and no one is going to be an enemy. I think this is the point. Everybody is a hero. Even the bear farmers are heroes for giving up their bears. No one's going to lose face in this campaign. This is how Animals Asia works. To use a sort of message, if you like, is kindness in action. We do things kindly. We don't do things to make people embarrassed or lose face. I think that's why we've been as successful as we have been over these years.
Elizabeth: [00:24:36] I think not just in the animal world, but in all worlds that are creating really big change. I think that's just the key that it's inclusive. We're all in this working with all sides. I mean, that's where you see the most progress and the most lasting change. Let's go back for just one second. So when Animals Asia rescues a bear or a few bears, right? Is that because a farmer decided to give up his bears and now you guys come in and bring them to your sanctuary? Or how does that work?
Jill: [00:25:09] It's both. I mean, it's, you know, obviously the Vietnamese government helps as well.
Elizabeth: [00:25:15] Yes.
Jill: [00:25:16] Obviously if they found an illegal bear farm or if they've confiscated bears in the trade, especially cubs, at this time of year that have been taken from mothers that have been killed, perhaps across borders in Cambodia or now, for example. Or it is indeed farmers giving up their bears as well. So we work at all levels, it doesn't really matter as long as we can rescue those bears into our care.
Elizabeth: [00:25:38] When you show up, these bears must be in the most horrific condition.
Jill: [00:25:42] Yeah, we always, I think, feel very sorry that we can't explain to the bears because they can't tell the difference between us and the farmers that they've just come from, you know, that are invading their bodies. But so they are, you're right. Most of them are horribly thin with the whole catalog of traumas to their bodies. Some of them are actually unbelievably morbidly obese as well because they've been fed such an inappropriate diet. So if the farm is near a bakery or something, they'll get the stale cakes and things and just feed the bears that. Some of the farmers have other livestock like pigs, so the bears would be getting pig food and things. There's never sort of one, you know, normal bear. Yeah, or part of this trade. We call these bears, I don't know if you know, those Kinder chocolate eggs with a little toy inside, we call our bears Kinder surprise bears because everyone is different. There's always a surprise and not a very nice one at that.
Elizabeth: [00:26:44] Once they get to your sanctuary and physically heal some. Is there a moment where all of a sudden they realize they're safe?
Jill: [00:26:54] Yes and no. It's just, you know, the bears are like us. They have different characters and personalities and different trauma as well. You know, sometimes you get a really laid back bear that it takes some days to realize that they've come to this amazing place and that life is never going to treat them badly again. For the first time they get tasty, nutritious food, they get enrichment. They've got toys that we give them throughout the day. Free access, of course, to food and water. They'll be hosed down a couple of times a day and enjoy a shower for the first time in their life, and they can just smell the environment around them because in Tam Dao national park, it's just secondary pine forest in the most beautiful blaze of green around them, and then they're just not getting hurt anymore. So some of them immediately respond to that and others take their time. Others, you know, they've been so betrayed. It takes their trust a while to grow. I can honestly say 99 percent of the cases, they eventually come around. You know, some of them still prefer to be solitary perhaps, some of them can be a bit grumpy, and others have just forgotten everything and their whole role in life is just to play with their friends and have a good time.
Elizabeth: [00:28:10] That must never get old to see this.
Jill: [00:28:14] It never, never, never gets old. I can promise you that.
Elizabeth: [00:28:17] How many bears are at the China Sanctuary?
Jill: [00:28:20] We’ve rescued two hundred and eighty five in our Chengdu sanctuary over these years. Then we've got another one hundred bears, one hundred and one bears that have been on a bear farm that we've overtaken and we've been looking after them on the bear bile farm and trying to make their life better. We've had to struggle with permits, trying to get those to bring them back to our sanctuary. But we're very, very close now in doing that. So hopefully we'll have another hundred bears at our sanctuary in Chengdu as well.
Elizabeth: [00:28:49] Your sanctuaries must also start changing the culture and the awareness around bear bile.
Jill: [00:28:56] Very much, very much. It's a joy to see. It really is, you know, I mean, just everyone from educators, teachers, university students, school kids, because we do just much more in the community as well. It's not just about the bears, although that's a very big point. You know, they come along to be bear keepers for the day, so they make the best toys and they can lay the food out in the enclosure. Then they can come safely back out and look at the bears as they come running out of their dens to enjoy the fruits of what these kids have just made. You know, which is really, really nice, but we also do things in the local community. So we work with impoverished children, children that are really, really poor and either bring them along to come and see the bears or we go into their communities and help set up libraries, for example, you know, supply books and stationery and things just to give these kids, you know, a little extra if you like in the community. It's just a far reaching program where people and animals alike benefit, you know, as a result of what we do.
Elizabeth: [00:29:58] What has COVID done in terms of all of your work? And obviously it's kept you away from.
Jill: [00:30:05] Yeah, yeah. It's been particularly stark, I think, in China, because we haven't been able to bring more vet staff that we need because the borders are closed. Of course, as well. So it's seen our capacity of vets really drained, really, really badly drained. We're really desperate to bring these two vet nurses that we're waiting for to bring into China. We also, at the beginning of COVID, had a terrible time trying to get things like medication and food. The cost of food went through the roof, you know, for the bears and for our staff, of course, as well. So we were really scrambling. Then, you know, things leveled out quite a lot in China and of course, in Vietnam as well. We've been really lucky. We really went into survival mode, Elizabeth. You know, at all levels, we had to furlough some staff, you know, we had to cut costs. We had to ask our board permission to dip into reserves if we had to and reserves are really important when you've got live animals that you're looking after, you absolutely need reserves in case something happens, in case that rainy day really does happen. So now we were asking our board if we could dip into reserves if we had to. It was a horrible time for everybody. We were just tightening our belt and we always made the promise that the last thing that would be affected would be the bears. Of course, the animals that we care for and the elephants, we have an elephant program in Vietnam as well. So we always promised that they would be the very last affected and also the staff as well. We would always do everything we could to help them, first of all. Yeah, it was a horrible time, but we came through it. We've been really lucky. We've got fantastic supporters across the world.
Elizabeth: [00:31:44] On the upside of the pandemic, what's happened with the dog and cat meat trade and also just the attention on live animal markets, are there a lot of changes actually happening? I know with the dog and cat meat, that's huge. But elsewhere, in terms of shutting down live animal markets?
Jill: [00:32:02] Yeah, China has come out with regulations now to stop wild animals being eaten. So that's a good step forward. I think, you know, it's not enough because animals are still allowed to be used in traditional medicine or for research or for display, but at least the consumption of these animals have been stopped. So wild animal markets, as you can see, are closing down and the government is taking this very seriously, they're compensating wildlife farmers in China quite extensively to stop them from breeding wild animals for eating now. So there is change and there just has to be more of this. As we always say, we've done more harm as a species than any one virus. Although it's costing millions and millions and millions of dollars now to help through COVID. It's going to cost trillions and trillions and trillions more if we don't do something because that next pandemic is waiting just around the corner.
Elizabeth: [00:32:59] I think for a lot of people, it's very easy to point fingers at China or different countries in Asia, especially when it comes to pandemics. But the next pandemic really might come from a U.S. factory farm, and there's a huge chance of it. I think that that whole part of this is a thing that got overlooked during COVID, and I think it was a really big missed opportunity in the sense of change needs to happen all over the world, not just China.
Jill: [00:33:26] I agree. I mean, you know, swine flu, bird flu, all these terrible diseases. It doesn't take much for a variant to emerge. It just doesn't. We know that now, it's already happening with COVID, and it's the next thing on the agenda. I'm sure, as you say, from practices in the West that everybody thought they were safe from and clearly are not. It's not going to get any better unless we look at how we are treating those animals. It's not just a case of throwing a handful of antibiotics at them, which we've been doing for years and years and years and which they're becoming immune to. That is not the answer at all. The answer is to slow down, you know, to reflect on this industry and what we're doing wrong and badly and cruelly in these factory farming premises.
Elizabeth: [00:34:11] As soon as COVID ends. I want to come see the sanctuary.
Jill: [00:34:14] The doors are wide open Elizabeth. You will love it and you will tell me, you didn't tell me it was like this, Jill. Everybody does. The beauty of the sanctuaries is indescribable. You walk into this amazing place in both China and in Vietnam. Where happy, healthy bears are just romping around with each other. I mean, in China, we've got an older population, that's for sure. We've got real old dodgers playing with each other and you know what, on a serious note, that's quite sad, too for the team, because especially when people join us just in the last few years, they're seeing a lot of elderly bears really coming to the end of their life and ultimately need to be humanely euthanized. You know, and that's that's very sad, I think, for people to see so but but I think what we forget is the life that they've had for the last 20 years, you know, since we've been open and and just to have seen these bears having the very, very best treatment and life.
Elizabeth: [00:35:14] Going back to the 90’s one last time when you came back and said, I have to change this. Was this your dream? Could you even fathom that this is what this would become, that Vietnam would make it illegal, that you would have these incredible, enormous sanctuaries in China and Vietnam?
Jill: [00:35:28] I could see the sanctuaries. I could definitely see the sanctuaries. It was a dream that we all wanted to build upon, the founding members and I. In fact, Boris is still with us, one of our founding directors, in Chengdu, and this is definitely the realization of what we could see. The goal of ending bear farming is another thing. It was something that we knew wanted to happen, that we knew we wanted to work towards. I tell you, it was the proudest day of my life, just in Vietnam, standing with the government there and Tuan Bendixsen, our fantastic Vietnam director, and Heidi, our team director there. I mean, just signing on that dotted line to end bear farming, it was like, Wow, we did this. That as well as the dogs and cats in China, you know, thinking about its two founding goals just gives you confidence and hope, you know? But as I say, I do want to pay credit as well to Ryan, our bear and vet team director in China and the team there, because they've had such a year, such a year through COVID and again with Ojai being poisoned, our dog, just a few days ago. My heart just bleeds for all of them. I just want to wrap my arms around them and be with them, and I can't, and it's just heartbreaking.
Elizabeth: [00:36:46] Any idea when you'll be able to go?
Jill: [00:36:48] Absolutely none yet, you know, because we keep getting waves, we keep getting new outbreaks. Small ones in China. But still, they're not going to open the borders until it's gone, you know, clearly so. But we get through, we get through, and I know Ryan would be the first person to say, you know, heck, come on, let's snap out of this, because we've got an incredibly optimistic team as well. We are very close to getting 100 bears back to Chengdu. When we can do that, it's going to be such a relief for everybody so they don't have to travel anymore. It's just been awful, to be honest with you. But to get those bears back home will be fantastic as well. So we've got a lot to look forward to and we're an optimistic bunch.
Elizabeth: [00:37:32] You’re an incredible bunch. I talked to a lot of people who say their dream is to one day be out of a job because they were successful with any animal, anything, and you're really doing that.
Jill: [00:37:46] Well, actually more than you think in Vietnam with the second sanctuary, it will ultimately, the goal is we're already training interns. It’s a fantastic program, Veterinary interns, managers are being promoted through the ranks,,, our Vietnamese team, so that they're heading up the bear management teams and ultimately that second sanctuary will be fully run by the local Vietnamese community, and that will totally do us out of a job. So that's exactly the goal there as well. In China, capacity training as well, across the board in both countries is just wonderful to see people that used to call their carers looking after the bears. Now they’re bear managers or team supervisors. It's like, wow and they’re being promoted through the ranks each and every year.
Elizabeth: [00:38:37] I love it. Thank you, Jill.
Jill: [00:38:39] My pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you for the opportunity.
Elizabeth: [00:38:49] To learn more about Jill and to learn about Animals Asia, go to our website, we will have links to everything on SpeciesUnite.com. We are on Facebook and Instagram, @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, we'd greatly appreciate it, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find the show. If you'd like to support the podcast, we are on Patreon, it's Patreon.com/SpeciesUnite. I would like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pearce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santana Polky and Anna Connor, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.
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