S7. E2: Jane Velez-Mitchell: Jane UnChained
“They looked at me and they pointed their finger right at my nose and they went ‘liquid meat’ like that, and that was the moment I went vegan. And I thank them for that, because if there had just been namby-pamby about it and said, ‘well you might want to consider, blah, blah, blah’… it might not have hit me”.
- Jane Velez-Mitchell
Jane Velez-Mitchell is the founder of Jane UnChained, a media platform for vegan and animal rights news. Her decades-long career as a broadcast journalist has focused on bringing animal rights issues to the forefront.
For six years she hosted her own show on CNN Headline News, where she ran a weekly segment on animal issues. Previously, Velez-Mitchell reported for the nationally syndicated Warner Brothers/Telepictures show Celebrity Justice, where she did numerous stories on animal issues championed by celebrities.
Jane’s also an author of four books and a producer of the award-winning documentary Countdown to Year Zero and the vegan cooking series New Day, New Chef.
Mainstream media has always skirted around animal rights issues and I wanted to hear how Jane brought them mainstream at a time when it wasn’t as popular to do so. And I wanted to know what she thinks about where we’re headed in the future.
Jane is absolutely awesome. I hope that you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
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Transcript:
Jane: [00:00:08] They looked at me and they pointed their finger right up my nose and they went ‘liquid meat’ like that. That was the moment I went vegan, and I thank them for that because if they had just been namby pamby about it and said, “Well, you might want to consider”, it might not have hit me.
Elizabeth: [00:00:40] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. For the month of November we are asking you to join us in our mission to change the way that the world treats animals and become a member of Species Unite. The benefits of joining are pretty awesome. For a monthly donation of any size, even two bucks, you will receive access to exclusive content, outtakes, bonus podcast episodes, updates and newsletters, priority access to all Species Unite events and a welcome pack from Yours Truly. So go to our website SpeciesUnite.com and click Become a member. This conversation is with Jane Velez Mitchell. Jane’s, a journalist whose decades long career has been focused on bringing animal rights issues to the forefront. She's the founder of Jane Unchained, a platform for vegan and animal rights news. She's the author of four books and the producer of the award winning documentary Countdown to Year Zero and The Vegan Cooking Series New Day New Chef. Mainstream media has always skirted around animal rights issues. I wanted to hear how Jane brought these issues to the mainstream at a time when it was not popular to do so and what she thinks about where we're headed in the future.
Jane: [00:02:24] How are you doing?
Elizabeth: [00:02:25] Good, how are you?
Jane: [00:02:26] Good. Excellent.
Elizabeth: [00:02:28] Jane, it's absolutely awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. Will you talk about how you grew up around food and the seeds that got planted along the way to get you on this incredible journey.
Jane: [00:02:40] Yeah, I grew up in, and I have to be very honest about it, in a mostly pescatarian household. We thought of ourselves as vegetarians, but we weren't. However, we did not bring meat into the house. We were not meat eaters. But fish is meat, so we did have fish. My mother, who was born in Vieques, Puerto Rico, which is an island off the coast of Puerto Rico but it's part of the Commonwealth, was the original animal rights activists. She was born in nineteen sixteen before women even had the right to vote. When she was a young girl, maybe six or seven, she had a pig who was a friend of hers, her companion. One day she came home and the pig had been slaughtered for food and she fainted. When she woke up, she vowed never to touch meat. It was revolting to her. So she came to New York on a boat by herself. At the height of the Great Depression, formed a successful Latin dance troupe called Anita Velez Dancers, and she would perform at the hotels in the Caribbean and the United States and Canada. She met my dad, who was Irish American and who was a meat eater. He was an advertising executive right out of Mad Men with an agency on Madison Avenue. They had dancing in common. My mother was a professional dancer and my dad was a good ballroom dancer, and my dad's best friend was my mother's theatrical agent. Uncle Charlie was a great presence. They all love to dance. This was the era of going to these nightclubs and they would brag about stopping the dance floor. It was just all this very, very fun stuff that was the era. So anyway, my dad lives in Central Park South. My mother lived on West 58th Street and my dad's back window looked out to my mother's front window and the rest is history. They got together. But suffice it to say that my dad then started giving up meat. We weren't strict, but the point is we didn't think that meat just fell from trees. We were very aware that animals were involved. My mother was very advanced in the 1940s. She was doing yoga when nobody even knew what yoga was. She was very advanced for her time and always reading and studying, writing plays and being a very sort of curious and interesting person.
Elizabeth: [00:05:21] I mean, your mom sounds absolutely incredible. What a cool mom, and what a cool life to grow up like that.
Jane: [00:05:28] Very cool. They were just very colorful, flamboyant, theatrical. It was, I would say, it reminded me of, like Broadway, Danny Rose. There were a lot of showbiz characters hanging out who had a claim to fame. One claim to fame. One hit wonders but yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Elizabeth: [00:05:50] Did that give you this awareness about animal cruelty in general, or was it just mostly focused on the food?
Jane: [00:05:56] No. I think what happened to me was that I had a dog. It was one of my mother's down and out showbiz friends. Cosmo, who was a famous pool hustler who came by with a dog and we took him in, Mr. Monday. I just fell in love. I was an only child. My parents didn't know from playdates, so this was my brother. Then I had the dog for a while and I was just happy as could be, and then I came home from school. Mr. Monday was gone. I started asking, where is Mr Monday? What happened to Mr Monday? Oh, Mr Monday went to a farm. They gave Mr Monday back to Cosmo and I still to this day have no idea what happened to Mr Monday. To this day It is the worst thing that's ever happened to me ever. I still tear up right now thinking about it. I lost trust in my parents. It totally changed our relationship. It was all because we were moving from West 58 Street to a fancier apartment on West 57th Street across from Carnegie Hall, and they were getting wall to wall carpeting. It wasn't my mother's decision. I think it was my father's decision. But the first thing I did when we moved into the new apartment, I knocked over a lamp and burned that carpet, and I did it totally unconsciously, and then I ran it to my room and started sobbing in my new room. So that was the thing that made me an animal rights activist. At that point, I didn't even know what an animal rights activist was. But I just there was an injustice and a horrible mystery. What happened to him?
Elizabeth: [00:07:41] And then when did you go vegan?
Jane: [00:07:43] I graduated from NYU and I got a job as a journalist. I was a reporter in Fort Myers, Florida, and then Minneapolis and then Philadelphia and then New York at WCBS TV, which was literally down the block from where I grew up on the same street, fifty seven street. Then after about eight years there, one of my good friends, who also worked there, got a job at Kcal TV, this new station that Disney was starting in L.A. and they were looking for an anchor. He recommended me and I was like, “Yes, get me out of here”. I was thrilled to go to L.A. and work at the paramount lot. Oh, It was great. I was there and Howard Lyman walked in, the fourth generation cattle rancher who became famous when he went on Oprah. After getting very ill, he said, “God, if you get me through this surgery, I'll reveal the horrors and the secrets of my terrible industry”.
Elizabeth: [00:08:40] This was about Mad Cow, right?
Jane: [00:08:42] Well, there was that aspect that he revealed that they were feeding cows to cows. I believe this is like a quarter of a century.
Elizabeth: [00:08:52] Yeah.
Jane: [00:08:53] But he revealed the secrets of the cattle industry. He knew all the secrets. So, he spilled the beans on Oprah. She famously said that just stopped me cold from eating another burger, and then the cattlemen sued her. She won, and he became famous for that, 15 minutes of fame, kind of thing. He wrote a book called Mad Cowboy, and he came in and I interviewed him. Afterwards he and his publicist, who is a very fierce animal activist named Mara Nealon, came up to my cubicle and they said, “Hey, we hear you're a vegetarian”. By that time, I was a vegetarian. I said, “yes”, and they said, “Do you eat dairy?” And I kind of hung my head because he just talked about raping the mothers and ripping the babies away from the mothers and killing the boy calves and sticking them in veal crates and all of these horror things. I said yes, and they looked at me and they pointed their finger right up my nose and they went, “Ooh, liquid meat”, like that. That was the moment I went vegan, and I thank them for that, because if they had just been namby pamby about it and said, “Well, you might want to consider blah blah blah”, it might not have hit me. But the way they said it, “liquid meat” like that, it worked. It worked. I never touched dairy. Actually, about a month later, somebody accidentally put some cheese, which I used to love, into my salad, and it tasted revolting to me. I spat it out. I was like, “Wow, it's because my taste buds have changed”.
Elizabeth: [00:10:18] It's interesting to hear someone actually talk about that. They were kind of shamed into giving up dairy because you hear so much, especially nowadays. That shame is just not the tactic, and that people need to like, evolve or like, to get seeds planted. But I do think for a lot of people, shame has worked. It worked for you, right?
Jane: [00:10:41] Right. Different people respond differently. I was open to the idea. I already was an animal lover. I think you start out nice. You're right, nice letters. You show the videos, you send photos, and when they still refuse to change, then you amp it up and you become more confrontational, always remaining nonviolent. That's what PETA has used successfully to pretty much now. Fur is dead in the United States. One store after the other. Boom. Boom, boom, boom. We used to go here and protest every year. We still do, on Rodeo Drive. It used to be ninety nine percent protests and then we'd hand a plaque. Not we. I'd be covering it. But the organizations would hand a plaque to whichever store had switched over, and they were so happy to pose with their plaque. They were happy to move on to the management. Now it's all awards. I mean, there's almost nowhere to protest against fur on Rodeo Drive. That's a huge victory.
Elizabeth: [00:11:50] Before you started Jane Unchained, you had the show issues on CNN
Jane: [00:11:54] Issues with Jane Velez-Mitchell on CNN Headline News.
Elizabeth: [00:11:57] Ok, but it was not an animal show, but you kind of snuck animal issues in there, right?
Jane: [00:12:09] Yes.
Elizabeth: [00:12:12] Will you talk about that?
Jane: [00:12:13] Oh, sure. I said, Would you mind if I did a little animal segment once a week, maybe Friday after Friday? They said, “Now we don't see a problem with that.” They might have thought I was going to do pet adoption. Well, immediately. I started doing things like pig gestation crates, tail docking. I had all the animal rights leaders on. We covered protests and it was really a breakthrough. Some of the producers said, we can't even look at this footage. It's too horrible because it would be an undercover investigation. They said, “Can you rotate it out to somebody else because this is really gruesome?'' So they cared, and I appreciate and will always be grateful for them allowing me to do the segment right up until the end of the show. They never stopped me.
Elizabeth: [00:13:00] That's awesome.
Jane: [00:13:01] You got to give them some credit for that. Right. They didn't shut it down.
Elizabeth: [00:13:13] Well, because a lot of the time in mainstream media, when it comes to any sort of animal rights issue or animal anything issue, we don't really see the full picture or they don't even go near it.
Jane: [00:13:13] Yeah, no way. I mean, that's why it was such a fluke. Advertiser based news media is not going to cover animal rights. All you need to do is look at the commercials in between the segments, which are primarily fast food and pharmaceuticals with an occasional insurance commercial thrown in. Those are the industries that would either have to radically change or collapse if people went plant based, so they're not going to talk about it after a couple of courageous reports from certain people, including one at CNN, about the pandemic's origins of the wet slaughter market, most likely. But what I say is even if it did start in a lab that's still animal experimentation, that's so either that we're torturing bats in a lab or they were torturing bats, pangolins and other animals in a wet market. Either way, it's animal abuse that led to this zoonotic illness, and the next one could be coming down the pike with either bird flu, swine flu, mad cow disease or any number of things. Industrialized animal agriculture is a petri dish for the next pandemic. You're not hearing that on mainstream media when COVID started sweeping through the slaughterhouses. They didn't even use the word slaughterhouse. Now, Rachel Maddow did a pretty good job covering that issue and actually showing at least some aspects of slaughterhouses. But the word slaughterhouse never got mentioned, they said meat processing facilities, meat packing. They can't even use the word slaughterhouse because there's the word slaughter in there, and that will remind people of what's going on in those slaughterhouses. And they only can talk about it from the perspective of the people affected, which of course, my heart goes out to them. We were involved with a group out of Iowa that represented a lot of the workers in the slaughterhouses and the head of the organization, the workers rep. He went vegan in solidarity from the workers who were dying, OK? He started a group called Boycott Meat, Joe Enriquez Henry. We did about 20 live videos with him on a weekly basis. Boycott meat while the pandemic was raging in these slaughterhouses, and of course, I found out horrible things about what goes on. I mean, aside from the horrors of killing these animals at a high rate of speed. Do you know that Oxfam discovered that workers often have to wear diapers because they get so few bathroom breaks? The level of moral depravity that we are just not looking at. Yet that is happening in the meat and dairy industry is so enormous, so extreme.
Elizabeth: [00:15:55] Is that what led you to start Jade Unchained? I mean, you've been in the media for decades and decades and seeing the representation animals get?
Jane: [00:16:04] Well, what happened was the show wrapped up. I was exactly fifty nine and a half and I kind of saw the handwriting on the wall. I did a few feelers here and there, and I say this ship has sailed. Time for Act three or Act two, whatever you want to call it. Actually I was with my girlfriend at the time. We were walking by a hardware store and we saw all these chains and I said, what do you want to do today? I said, “Well, let's go to a protest, because now I'm not a paid journalist. I can go to a protest for the first time in my life, really as a protester”. Then I think she or I, one of us, we looked at the chains and we said Jane Unchained. So that's what we named it, Jane Unchained. So I started going to protests and then I realized, Well, I could put all this on social media. One of the first stories I covered was in Brooklyn. On a bitter cold night, it was nine degrees and I had at the time it was before Facebook Live. I had a GoPro. My hand was shaking and I thought, Is this worth it? Well, yes. One of the things I noticed was that two hundred people showed up, but nobody was documenting it. And because it was so cold, all the people going to see Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Circus were just whisking by and everybody was shaking in the cold and I was recording it. That was one of our very first stories and not thanks to me, thanks to PETA mostly and other groups. Ringlings no longer exist. They are no longer torturing elephants and tigers and all the other animals. Yeah. So even though that seemed impossible at the time when we were standing out there shaking and shivering, as Nelson Mandela said, it always seems impossible until it's done.
Elizabeth: [00:17:54] So then Jane Unchained kind of exploded, right? Pretty quickly.
Jane: [00:17:59] Well, yeah, I think we were at the right time. Suddenly, Facebook Live came along and I just realized, Oh my gosh, this is a gift because I was a live reporter my whole career. I mostly was live, either as a host, as an anchor or as a reporter. I'm very comfortable speaking live and I love the fact that you don't have to edit it. So I was having a little vegan cookout and I wanted to see if the live would work on the deck if the Wi-Fi would work. I started interviewing my friends. Simone Reyez, Katie Cleary and there were some just sort of fun, glamorous people there. All of a sudden there were all these comments saying, “oh, what do they have in which vegan burger?” And I thought, Wow, people are really interested in this. So that's when we created a lunch break live. Every single day since then, it's been about five years. We went live at 12:30 p.m Pacific at Facebook.com/Jane Velez-Mitchell, which is the Jane Unchained Facebook page. So every day, holidays, storms, it's happening today. It happened yesterday and no matter what, and if you're vegan and you like to cook, you're invited. All you have to do is Instagram. A message at Jane Unchained news Jane news and we will have you on.
Elizabeth: [00:19:24] Oh, that's awesome.
Jane: [00:19:25] Yeah. So, we did that for every day: Christmas, Hanukkah, New Year's Eve, election night. It doesn't matter. We do it and it's fun. It's so much fun. Everybody enjoys it.
Elizabeth: [00:19:37] Right.
Jane: [00:19:38] Then out of that, we ended up getting an in-studio professional vegan cooking show on Amazon Prime and public television stations around the country.
Elizabeth: [00:19:47] I've seen it, and it's awesome.
Jane: [00:19:49] It was nominated for eight Taste Awards and won two Taste Awards, which is considered the Oscars of food.
Elizabeth: [00:19:56] The show is so much fun, too. It's exciting to see all that vegan food on TV, which you never see on regular shows for everybody. It's like it's a huge celebration of what food should be.
Jane: [00:20:09] Yes.
Elizabeth: [00:20:11] I totally loved it.
Jane: [00:20:13] Yeah, and we do the blender dance every time we urge all vegans at any time. Even if you're home alone, when you turn on the blender or the food processor, do the blender dance.
Elizabeth: [00:20:22] One of the things that you've really done with Jane Unchained, because so many people follow it, read it and watch it, is you have brought a lot of these issues, maybe not fully mainstream, but it's a lot more than the animal rights people and vegans have. People are watching it. You're not just speaking to the choir by any means, it's getting shared and passed around, and it's opening a lot of people's eyes. In a lot of places where the media just wasn't there ever.
Jane: [00:20:51] Here's the thing I kept hearing the same story when I'd go to protests.”Oh, the media said they would come, but there was a breaking news story”, and I'd roll my eyes, “Oh, I've been in the media. I know that's exactly what you say when you don't want to go to a story”. So I realized that we can't just keep begging. Let's take the power back. Let's be our own media. Everybody with a phone has a production company with a distribution channel to an audience. We got half a million views when my buddy Norah Constance Marino, who is a tough New York lawyer, went live outside the Smithfield slaughterhouse in one of the Carolinas. It was just a horror of pig trucks coming in and the police were pushing them back, and she just kept saying, “This is gut wrenching. This is gut wrenching”. It got half a million views. She was there, it was shaky but it was very dramatic, right?
Elizabeth: [00:21:52] Right and it is gut wrenching when you're at a vigil, every time.
Jane: [00:21:55] Oh my God. I have to always give a shout out to some of my heroes. Anita Korine is the founder of the Save Movement. She's the one who famously was arrested for giving water to a pig.
Elizabeth: [00:22:04] Yes.
Jane: [00:22:06] And who put the animal industry on trial, and she's now started the plant based treaty. It's modeled under the popular fossil fuel treaty. So it's going to give us a lot of credibility as we head into these different environmental conferences like Cop 26, ect.
Elizabeth: [00:22:21] Well, that's one thing I wanted to ask you about, too. I watched your documentary, which is awesome. People in the animal rights movement know this, but I don't think the general population talks about this enough. But that part of the conversation that always seems to be missing at so many of these climate conferences and climate conversations is animal agriculture, which is the biggest destroyer. This plant based treaty is one of the things bringing attention to this?
Jane: [00:22:53] Oh yes, absolutely. Yeah and it's proactive. Basically, it's about relinquishing animal agriculture, redirecting government subsidies to fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains that people eat, as opposed to commodity crops that are consumed by the farmed animals. Then basically renewing farmland back into forests because trees absorb carbon. So when the government says, “well, we can't reverse climate change, we can keep it from getting worse”, they're wrong. We could reverse climate change if we took all the farmland that's used to grow crops to feed farm animals and all the cattle grazing land and reforested that. Those trees would absorb carbon and that would be able to start reversing the Earth's temperature. There is a way to reverse climate change. This is what's so infuriating, is that the very people who are saying code red are creating the crisis. The U.N. did a report that they just published, which only the Guardian, which I love the Guardian. I mean, there are independent news media that are talking about this, but the mainstream media doesn't talk about this. The Guardian published the story that said the U.N. is saying that government subsidies are what is accelerating climate change because government subsidies are going into the industrialized meat and dairy industry. That's accelerating climate because animal agriculture is a leading cause of climate change. Now, people quibble about exactly what percentage.
Elizabeth: [00:24:20] The percentage doesn't really matter because it's the one thing that every individual can do. Reduce your meat, stop your meat. It's the actual thing you have control and power over. In order to reverse this, every single person on this planet can shift this and change it. So if that were more of the conversation and people actually have realized, wait, I can actually, I have a real influence over what's happening and these fires and the fact that it's one hundred and fifty degrees outside. But because that conversation is not happening, most people don't realize how much impact they would have if they would just reduce or stop eating meat and dairy.
Jane: [00:24:58] Yeah, I mean, it's something we can do, and it's the U.N. said back in 2006 with livestock's long shadow that animal agriculture is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than all transportation combined. So, yeah, go get that Tesla, if that's what you want and can afford it. But also the most important thing you can do is not eat animals, and they're byproducts. This message is not getting out and it's infuriating. But that's why instead of griping, do an end run, every time you eat a meal or go to a restaurant, just do a little Instagram Live video or take a photo. What I realized with JaneUnchained was that Jane, you can't do this alone. You got to keep pivoting. Yes, it's infuriating. But two steps back, three steps forward.
Elizabeth: [00:25:50] When you talk to people who come to you as meat eaters or veg curious or because you are saying how you know, shame doesn't really work for some people, but it might work for others. Where do you point them?
Jane: [00:26:03] Well, here's the thing. There are too many people on this planet to have long discussions with each and every person individually. Forget about that relative who insists, you know, the passive aggressive relative who's always insisting on the meat and let it go. Don't waste all your energy on that. We try to find commonalities with people who are not vegan, but who are maybe open to the idea, or if they're not open to the idea for moral or environmental reasons. They want to lose weight. They want to feel healthier. They're interested in longevity. They want more energy. They want to stop feeling depressed. Your happiness level, which is based to a quite a great degree on your serotonin level, is determined by your gut biome. So when you're eating healthy fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains, your gut biome is pumping up those serotonin levels and you're much happier. I'm a happy person.
Elizabeth: [00:27:06] You're very happy. You have incredible energy. You've been sober for a long time, and I've heard you talk about going sober and going vegan. There's a lot of crossovers in terms of how people do it. Will you unpack that a little bit?
Jane: [00:27:21] Sure. I'm twenty six years sober. Knock on wood one day at a time. All we get is a daily reprieve. It was after I got sober that I went vegan, and I don't think that's an accident because I would sit in the bar. But I love animals. I love them, but I never really did anything about it. So once I got sober, I had clarity and I started realizing that my behavior wasn't in alignment. And then with Howard Lyman giving me that liquid meat. It was a wake up call. I was able to hear him. They say, when you're ready to hear something, you'll hear it. Until you're ready to hear it, you could be screamed at with the truth right into your face and you won't hear it. I was ready to hear it. I see a big parallelwelt between meat and dairy consumption and addiction. Unfortunately, I have the dubious honor of being an expert in addiction, I wish I wasn't, but I wrote a book called Addict Nation. We live in an addict allergenic culture and people are hooked on meat and dairy. Dr. Neal Barnard wrote a great book about how cheese is addictive because it's a concentration of dairy and there is a morphine like substance that nature puts in dairy products to get the cats to drink their mother's milk, and it gets concentrated in cheese. That's why so many people have such a hard time giving up cheese. But addicts hit bottom, and that's when they wake up. We've all known that experience where somebody has a problem and you try to talk to them, and it's just like falling on deaf ears. That's what we're experiencing with the meat eating community. But climate change is creating fires, floods, droughts, and extreme heat. I watched an Extinction Rebellion founder interview with the IPCC Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change reviewer Dr Peter Carter. He said as the temperature gets hotter. You will start seeing massive crop failures, massive, all of a sudden I watched that and then I started reading articles. One was in the Sacramento Bee. A woman's quote unquote had to liquidate her cows. Can you imagine it was too expensive to feed them because of the drought and the crop prices? Then I was reading, Oh my gosh. In other states in Idaho and California, they're experiencing Crawford. It's already happening. In the Midwest It happened all summer. So, OK, we know that people are dying of starvation right now and in other countries and that's a crime. It's a tragedy. When it starts happening here, when people go into the stores and they see empty shelves where there used to be bread. Because of crop failures, there's going to come a point where we're going to have to ask ourselves as a global species, human species, do I want to have water or do I want to give it to 80 billion farmed animals that we're forcing into existence every year? Do I want to have food or do we want to give it to 80 billion farmed animals that we're forcibly producing every year? Finite resources. It's going to come down to that, and that's when I think everybody will have to shift. They're going to have to shift because otherwise there's going to be no water and no food for us.
Elizabeth: [00:30:46] I agree. Jane, you're awesome. Everything you do is incredible and it just keeps expanding and I can't wait for the next project.
Jane: [00:30:54] Thank you for all you do. It's a team effort.
Elizabeth: [00:30:58] Thank you. To learn more about Jane and Jane Unchained, go to our website SpeciesUnite.com. We will have links to everything we are on Facebook and Instagram, @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, please rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people find the show. If you'd like to support Species Unite, we'd greatly appreciate it, go to our website and click Become a member. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Caitlin Pearce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santana, Poky, Bethany Jones and Anna Conner, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful day!
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