S6. E3: Hakeem Jimo: Veggie Victory
“A friend of mine in Germany is called Dr. Tofu. He was the first who did tofu on a commercial scale, in the eighties. They arrested him… for cooking something suspicious…He was arrested a couple of times.
“So, when it started in Nigeria and we opened the first vegan restaurant and there were also no vegetarian restaurants, people were saying, that's crazy. Why do you do that? But I knew kind of that time was on our side.”
- Hakeem Jimo
Hakeem Jimo is the co-founder of Veggie Victory, Nigeria’s first plant-based food tech company. Hakeem and his partner, Bola Adeyanjualso founded V Café, Nigeria’s first vegan restaurant in 2013. V Café is in Lagos and serves veganized Nigerian culinary delicacies to vegans, meat-eaters, and everyone in between.
A few years after opening the restaurant, Hakeem and Bola began producing VChunks, a seitan-based meat alternative that was created to pair beautifully with most Nigerian cuisine.
VChunks are dehydrated so that they can be kept on shelves for months and do not need refrigeration, which is not an option for many in parts of Nigeria.
Hakeem is Nigerian-German, was born and raised in Germany and has lived in West Africa for the past 27 years. Before becoming a vegan food and tech entrepreneur, he worked in journalism and public relations.
Hakeem is a pioneer, a trailblazer, and a force.
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Transcript:
Hakeem: [00:00:15] So, when it started here in Nigeria and we opened the first vegan restaurant, there were also no vegetarian restaurants, people were saying, “That's crazy. Why? Why do you do that?” But I knew kind of the time is on our side.
Elizabeth: [00:00:37] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz, this is Species Unite. We have a favor to ask, if you like today's episode and you have a spare minute, could you please rate and review Species Unite on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people to find the show. This conversation is with Hakeem Jimo. Hakeem is co-founder of Veggie Victory, Nigeria's first plant based food tech company. Hakeem, thank you so much for doing this today, I'm really excited to have you here.
Hakeem: [00:01:29] Yeah, thank you Beth.
Elizabeth: [00:01:30] You were born and raised in Germany and went vegetarian in Germany, and I lived in Germany as a kid until my last year of high school.
Hakeem: [00:01:39] Oh, cool.
Elizabeth: [00:01:40] I went vegetarian when I was like 13, when there was zero. You couldn't get a salad without ham and I was like, “Oh my God, somebody understands because I didn't know a soul that was vegetarian”. So, let's start back then.
Hakeem: [00:02:00] But it's not as bad as when I lived for a few months in upstate New York. There was one place in town that had a donut with bacon on it.
Elizabeth: [00:02:10] Oh, come on.
Hakeem: [00:02:13] I mean, you know, I'm telling you, I was just laughing. It was so bad. I was just laughing.
Elizabeth: [00:02:15] Oh, I mean, now Germany is like a vegan mecca. There's so much good vegan food, but back then it was not so good.
Hakeem: [00:02:22] Yeah, it really wasn't.
Elizabeth: [00:02:25] So you're born and raised in Germany? Talk to me a little about that. Like, was there anything going on in your life at that point that around food, around animals that kind of led you in this direction or path?
Hakeem: [00:02:39] My mother is German, my father is actually Nigerian, but I was born and raised in northern Germany, close to Hamburg and born in the seventies. I did everything there, even school. Then I moved to a farm that was 100 kilometers from Hamburg. I was a teenager and I lived in the countryside on a farm. It was a village with 160 people. I always say more and more cows than people. What they do there is the family. Some families in the village come together and then they buy a whole pig and then the butcher comes to your farm and then processes the pig. It sounds brutal, but in a way compared to animal farming, it's actually the, well, the artisanal way of eating animals. I think if we would be there, we would be much further in our vegan cause, you know? But the problem is obviously you don't need to tell you it's animal farming once you get completely disconnected. So they had this pig and then it gave so much. Then we had freezers. I think three big freezers and it was every day there was meat. That's really the cliched German, meat and potatoes, you know, it's really like that. Something was said, this is too much. I intuitively just went for the potatoes, some vegetables and the gravy. So those were my early stories, but it was much later at the university in Hamburg that they now introduced an alternative meal. So that was in the mid-90s now and that was actually a vegetarian meal. The word vegetarian just came up, there was no there was no idea what veganism is. It happened when I was 19 years of being vegetarian. Had I known that there was veganism, I would have done that a long time ago. But yeah, there were no, no role models and vegetarians at that time, and there was nothing. What really triggered it was there were some food scandals back then. I remember there was a chicken farm and what they did is they sprayed the chickens with nicotine. When you're a teenager, all the adults are telling you, don't start smoking and then you hear that they are actually spraying the animals with nicotine.
Elizabeth: [00:05:07] Why were they doing this?
Hakeem: [00:05:09] It's for disinfection, you know? I actually know when I became a journalist, I started researching. You can still find that scandal Pullman, that was a big scandal, and that was one of the first media things that started and then later on the foot and claw disease. There was fish in the north. We had something and I just thought, Wait, I mean, and we are eating all that and then you start connecting the dots, you know?
Elizabeth: [00:05:31] So then that was when you were vegetarian?
Hakeem: [00:05:34] Well, vegetarian, you know, for 19 years. Then you realize somebody starts telling you, wait, well dairy is also not so cruel, but that was later. I think a lot of people can relate to it. The journey, you know, you start and you learn more and then you suddenly get the environmental aspect. What really worked for me is I started visiting Africa back then, and when I was still meat, eating my stomach had a problem every now and then eating some meat somewhere. When I was a vegetarian, I was fine. You know, no problems. You could send me anywhere. They kept on saying it's, oh, you have a running tummy because you ate some salad, the salad was not clean. But it was actually the meat. I mean, the désinformation is really hilarious. You know, it's yeah, I got typhoid fever from eating meat. You put things together, that was basically my story, that immediately you feel better. That's very important. Now in Africa, the health story, it's not so much the ethical aspect of animals. We don't have so much animal farming yet, but it's going there.
Elizabeth: [00:06:40] It's coming right and it's getting there?
Hakeem: [00:06:42] Yep, and that's the thing. People are not so aware about this animal fund because it's just starting. But health is definitely what's catching them, totally, because we have very bad health infrastructure and people are on their own. They have no money anyway. Lots of people in Africa and nobody has health insurance, very few. So if you have a health problem, that's really a big problem. Hypertension, all these non-communicable diseases.
Elizabeth: [00:07:11] And that's because of more meat? The more meat there comes disease?.
Hakeem: [00:07:15] Yeah, it's one of the things like with colonialism, diet changed. Traditionally, African meals many of them are plant based and up to today it's maybe not so clear to everyone. Africa doesn't really eat much meat, just the United States, with 300 million people or 330 eats more meat than the entire African continent with one billion. I have some numbers because it's so staggering, like an average African eats only 5kg of chicken against the American standard with 120 kg of chicken per year. So you have to understand that we are actually not eating much meat. But what we are now doing is not about meat reduction. I mean, if it was me, I would also reduce it to zero. But it's actually more about meat prevention because once these countries, and like there are many emerging markets countries like Nigeria, like India, China, once they are getting a little bit richer, they are putting it into meat. The meat consumption goes higher, and that is why global meat consumption is rising. If you are in Berlin or in Portland, Oregon and or in Austin. Yeah. You are one of the lucky few, but that's not the reality. The reality is meat consumption is rising. I think that's very important for the vegan community that we're not winning the war right now.
Elizabeth: [00:08:44] Yeah, there's a lot. There's more meat eating every year. It's not going down, that's for sure. So that's one of the things I wanted to ask you about though. When you first opened the restaurant in Nigeria, there were no vegan restaurants in Lagos. Combined with the fact that there's a lot of prestige with meat, it means wealth that means people are doing better. What was the reaction in the sense of like bringing in a vegan restaurant?
Hakeem: [00:09:11] Yeah, of course. People were saying, are these people crazy or what? We love our meat. But I wasn't really so bothered about it because I heard the same 30 years ago in Germany, and you can relate to that. Germany in the 90s was not much better, and actually, I always say the awareness in Africa is even quite high, because they love their meat, but they are having an uneasy feeling, they are realizing it's not so good. There are problems with meat and that awareness is higher than Germany in the 80s or 90s. I know a friend of mine in Germany is called Dr. Tofu, and he was the first one who did tofu on a commercial scale in the 80s and they arrested him. That's what he's always telling, that story.
Elizabeth: [00:10:03] For what?
Hakeem: [00:10:04] For cooking something suspicious because he brought it from Japan, you know, so he was arrested a couple of times. So when it started here in Nigeria and we opened the first vegan restaurant and there was also no vegetarian restaurant, people were saying, “That's crazy. Why do you do that?” But I knew kind of the time is on our side and I cannot be the only one. I know there are other returnees as we call Africans that are coming back from abroad, that lived in the US and the UK, and they are having the health message. I knew that people want to reduce meat and that's what happened from day one. Ninety percent of our customers up to today are normal meat eaters that just want to reduce their meat. So the abuse was not that much. Of course, you get your funny looks and some comments now and then still on social media, we are Nigerians, we are eating meat, but that's silly. I think the health message, everybody got it. Now that you have to do something about your health and then meat, a big part of that.
Elizabeth: [00:11:05] What year did you open the restaurant?
Hakeem: [00:11:09] 2013. So in May, we are celebrating eight years.
Elizabeth: [00:11:15] You're a journalist. Before that, have you had any experience with food or restaurants or like, what brought this on?
Hakeem: [00:11:23] Yeah, so I was trying to make the switch to veganism, and I knew you need the support network because if there's not one restaurant really where you can eat or I used to, I always went to Lebanese restaurants. We have a few of them or Indian restaurants, but even there you have this paneer stuff and this ghee all the time. I also just wanted a vegan burger. What happened was I did a trip back then to Asia and landed in Thailand and then found my way to Cambodia and Vietnam. I had this app called Happy Cow. Up to today I love it, you know, and it was like a sightseeing trip. I basically explored the areas and cities with the app, where is the next vegan place? Then I came back to Lagos and the same app showed me zero results. I said, Come on, I mean, I'm living here in a city, Lagos, 20 million people. That's double the size of New York City, and there's not one vegan restaurant. I told my partner, Come on, even if I'm the only one eating in that restaurant, at least I'm saving the money going to all these Indian and Lebanese restaurants.
Elizabeth: [00:12:31] Well, what does she say when you say, Oh, we're going to open a restaurant now?
Hakeem: [00:12:35] Yeah. So Bella is a full Nigerian and, yeah, meat eater back then. She said, that's crazy. But then I explained more. I told her that there is a trend coming and I see signs that signal the health trend from America. I always say that trends end up also in Africa. It starts often in the US, then gets to Europe and then it comes to Africa. So the health trend, I saw it, role models are becoming healthier, and so I knew it will come at some point. I think we are at the beginning now, the eight years we have done the restaurant. It was kind of a long journey. The restaurant has always done fairly well. Just two years into the restaurant, we thought, how can we expand because people reached out to us from different parts of the country and even from other countries that they want to have that experience. So we came up with the product because there's no meat substitutes.
Elizabeth: [00:13:33] Was there anything at all like across Africa in terms of plant based meat?
Hakeem: [00:13:37] Supermarkets, but there are not many. We don't have something like Wal-Mart. I'm always trying to get people to understand. You know, we have our largest supermarket chain, 20 stores in the whole country with 200 million people, so most people are still buying food in open markets. The typical markets, you would call it farmer's market, but a huge market that is really an African market supermarket is just now coming. Less than 10 percent of the food is going through supermarkets. So it's different, yeah, it's a different continent. So in those supermarkets, most of the stuff is imported. They are just basically buying products from the UK and the US. So what you have on the shelf in the US, you find it in those supermarkets. But just like 10 percent of those, when you have 10 or 15 different brands of chips, we have to, you know, but slowly then the first soy milks came. But meat substitutes are very rare up to today because the problem is that they are frozen. A lot of things you don't think about that most meat substitutes, they are in the cold chain, but there is basically no cold chain in Africa. There's no electricity. There is no cold chain. So all these supermarkets, they are thinking twice before they bring in frozen stuff, you know?
Elizabeth: [00:15:05] So you're at the restaurant and you're like, “maybe we should just create an entire new food”. How does this happen? It's a big step to go from restaurant to product.
Hakeem: [00:15:15] Yes. So what we did was when we started our restaurant, we tried to look, what meat substitutes do we find? But like I said, it was very sporadic. They came in. Sometimes they had products, but then they were out. But then you cannot tell your customers that you don't have those burger patties now. So, it was pretty quickly clear that we needed to have our own products. Then we did some seitan stuff. We learned that tofu was ok. We made our tofu. Tofu is pretty straightforward, but you don't win anybody, any meat eater over with tofu. That's the thing. So the seitan, we had something, we made it fresh, so that worked a bit. It was more reliable than this supply from the supermarket. Then we realized we need to work on the product. So, what we basically do at the restaurant is we are really proud of cooking Nigerian dishes because we want to make it accessible for Nigerians. Not another fancy restaurant that caters for expatriates or something, you know? So really, veganising Nigerian dishes.
Elizabeth: [00:16:19] Give me an example of some Nigerian dishes that you are creating?
Hakeem: [00:16:23] The food will often really works like you have a stew, and then you have lots of different leaves, and that's where African food is so amazing, like moringa leaves, you know, I'm sure a lot of people heard about moringa. It grows everywhere. Then we are just taking the leaf and they're making a stew out of it. So imagine that that's like super food in a stew or melon seeds. We are making a stew with melon seeds. It's really interesting that African cuisine has not yet gotten the reputation, but it's really very nutritious. So, you have your stew and then you have a kind of staple food, which is like manioc or tapioca. You call it and then you mash it, basically like mashed potatoes and then you dip balls with your hands. We eat it with that into the stew. That's a really common food stew. Then you have your starch, your carbohydrate, then you dip it in, and then, of course, a lot of rice, that's the other side of rice with some stew. Now it's very common that people want to have meat with it because it's a prestigious thing. It's aspirational. When you talk to all the Africans, especially in the villages, they will tell you we don't eat a lot of red meat, maybe three times in a year when there was some festivity, you know, a wedding, they had a bit more fish and then chicken. Nowadays they eat chicken every day. That wasn't maybe every month in the old days. But now the mindset is there has to be some piece of meat in the stew or on top of the rice, you know? And if it's not, that's the problem. That's when you're almost like, it's almost shameful. If you have guests and you're not serving them, you know. That's really where we are coming in now, how can we destigmatize that and offer them something? I think we have a lot of opportunities.
Elizabeth: [00:18:25] So for you guys, though, that's where you came in and said, we're going to make our own. We're going to come up with a product, right?
Hakeem: [00:18:32] When we looked at veganising, Nigerian dishes, you could technically make this very well. I do half the stews without any meat because the moringa leaf is so wonderful, but it doesn't really work with the typical Nigerian taste because they expect this chunky thing inside. You know, they want a piece of meat in it. They don't need much. They don't want a T-Bone steak or ribs or stuff, they just want a piece of meat in it. That's where we are now coming in that we developed a meat substitute here in Africa made by us. You know, nothing imports a burger patty. How can you put a burger patty into a stew? It doesn't work. We need to have our own product. Then we came up with this product and it works, because you have that chunky thing and that's where I see lots of potential because Africans, actually they don't really expect much. That brown thing that is chewy. You know, that you can drag. That's fine. If as long as it has those qualities that you can drag it in your teeth and you can chew it, you know, that's good. That's really our bet now that we might convince people to go for that because what is what is really meat, it's in your it's a concept, but it's chewy. The seasoning, the spicing that is even meat. It's the seasoning. The taste is not really the meat. The seasoning is easy, it's the texture. Then like tofu or soy chunks, that doesn't work because it doesn't have this chewy texture. Nigerians really want to choose something, you know, like Western sushi, almost like leather.
Elizabeth: [00:20:19] Yeah. So you make this and it's made with Satan?
Hakeem: [00:20:22] Basically a mixed Satan with some other things, some soy in it. The thing is, it's dehydrated and it's shelf stable in ambient temperature. So it's basically like a bag of pasta. You can put it on your shelf and it's fine. It stays there for six months and it's good. That really has some advantages in the long run. It will really play into our hands because with meat markets people are realizing you need a kind of cold chain which does not exist. But then what do you do? Of course, they're not throwing away the meat from yesterday, but they're using it the next day. That's how you get typhoid fever. We are also trying to actually be cheaper than meat, which is another big thing. I'm always so annoyed when I buy a meat substitute abroad and it's more expensive than the normal meat, and that's definitely not how you're going to win over this kind of country. The prices are coming down. Definitely. Because still, even in Europe, in Germany, there are a lot of people that cannot afford a meat substitute. We have to really make it accessible for the lower income. A little bit less elitist.
Elizabeth: [00:21:36] Yeah. The U.S. and Europe meat is ridiculously cheap compared to everything else.
Hakeem: [00:21:40] Yeah. Of course, the subsidies come into play in the lobby, but that shouldn't be an excuse, because the resources you need. I mean you guys know more, I don't need to say, I'm preaching to the converted. But I think we need to be cheaper than meat and especially in these emerging countries. I'm always trying to scare people a bit in the West. You know, if it's great that you have all these vegan restaurants in New York and big cities. But if you lose countries like Nigeria, India and China, even if you're vegan your industry is growing by 10 percent. But if these countries eat one zero point one percent more meat, you're losing it, you know. That's what's happening and we are sitting in this together. Sorry, that's one thing I'm telling you. It's not like, Oh yeah, let Africa or China eat meat. Know what's going to happen to your meat producers. They are looking at other markets and they might say, “OK, we are selling a little bit less now in the U.S., so let's ship it to Africa”. It's the same with the tobacco industry, when you guys became more healthy, they just shipped the same stuff to Africa and to China. You know, we want to eliminate the meat industry, but right now we're just pushing them into other countries.
Elizabeth: [00:22:58] What's been people's reaction to VE chunks?
Hakeem: [00:23:01] I love it when people come and say, “I can't believe that this is not meat. You guys aren’t telling the truth. You know, what kind of meat is it? “ The concept of meat substitute is very new. Yeah, and even vegan. As the term is new, I think the prejudices against meat substitute are less here. We don't need to compete with meat in that way. While you have all these ribs and slow cooked tender meat and T-Bone steaks, which is really hard to replicate. We just need a chunk, you know, on top. The feedback we are getting is as long as you have that, it's fine. That's the kind of leapfrogging idea that often comes, like Africa never had a landline phone, landlines, they just went straight to cellular phones, or we didn't have PCs. Now we went straight to laptops or mobile phones. That's a bit the analogy that we are not going into meat, but we are going straight into meat substitutes. But that is really visionary talk if we can make that and we have to make it because if they start ranching here and animal farming, that's a losing game and it's happening. They are now building a lot of chicken farms. Because chicken is quick, you can grow it faster than cattle, so it's happening. Another thing is our population is going to explode in the next 20 years. We are going to double our population on the continent. That's insane. From one billion to two billion. How are you going to feed those people? That's that's the thing, you know, even if we don't eat per head per capita, if we don't eat much meat, but if that's two people instead of one. You will need a lot of meat.
Elizabeth: [00:24:50] You would need a lot of meat. You also work with education?
Hakeem: [00:24:53] Basically, we realize that a lot of things have to come together. You don't just start a restaurant, a vegan restaurant, you don't just start a vegan product or meat substitute, there has to be awareness. It's a whole movement. For us, really, awareness is the same as marketing. It's also a nutrition aspect because you need protein and people know that animals are the source of protein, which is true. But still, protein has to come from plants. In Africa we have a severe protein deficiency. It's not like you guys that you have.
Elizabeth: [00:25:30] No, no one in the U.S. actually has protein deficiency. Everyone eats so many amounts of protein. But in Africa, it's real. I mean, it's serious.
Hakeem: [00:25:39] It's real, and we have serious malnutrition. In Nigeria, 40 percent of the children are malnourished. It's crazy, and even compared to other developing countries, we are only eating half of the protein compared to Asian countries. We need more protein from a nutrition development aspect. But now the thing is, where is the protein coming from?
Elizabeth: [00:26:03] Is that part of your education, showing where to get protein? That protein exists aside from meat?
Hakeem: [00:26:10] Yeah, everybody has this belief that protein is really from animals. They also know that protein can also be in beans. So what we are showing them is that actually beans have a lot of protein and there are other products. Tofu and even our product has double the amount of protein than beef, it's enlightening them about the plant based protein sources. It's not only about reducing meat, it's also all these sugary drinks. I believe in a kind of holistic aspect and processed food, but most people don't really process food because thank God, we don't have this food desert. It’s even the other way around because you still have these local markets everywhere. Here we have this irony that people are saving money to go to KFC. It's that crazy. You know, sometimes I really have to remind myself that this is reality. People are saving money to go on Christmas Day to Kentucky Fried Chicken because it's a luxury for them. Many years ago I was in Detroit for a week and I had to drive literally 10 miles to get a fresh tomato. Honestly, I had to go on the highway and then I found a Trader Joe’s, that was 10 miles away. It was sad because I mean, those are the less privileged areas I know of. Sure, there's some rich parts of Detroit. I wasn't lucky to be in that one. That's when I realized this food, I couldn't imagine not being from Europe and Africa. It's crazy, I couldn't find a fresh tomato. That’s what I'm always trying to say is that in Africa we have our own problems, but it also exists somewhere else, you know, in Germany and America. There's a plan behind it, because of the subsidized meat, even in Germany, people are wondering, can I afford a vegan diet?
Elizabeth: [00:28:09] And people here say that all the time I can't afford to be vegan.
Hakeem: [00:28:12] It's also because it's quality food.
Elizabeth: [00:28:13] Yes.
Hakeem: [00:28:14] I think it's not by coincidence.
Elizabeth: [00:28:16] No.
Hakeem: [00:28:17] But it's no different discussion.
Elizabeth: [00:28:18] For veggie victory for V chunks. Where are they available?
Hakeem: [00:28:22] Yeah. Shipment is on the way to the U.S. and we're getting requests. Of course, our market is Nigeria and we are looking at Africa. We just ship to Kenya, South Africa, in Africa, it's everywhere the same. They have different cuisines, but the meat, the hour which works for that, you know? Interestingly, we're getting a lot of requests from the U.S and the UK. We're selling now in the U.K., and even France, because the African diaspora is quite numerous and even African Americans. Because there was an article in the Washington Post a while ago that said that the African American community is the fastest growing vegan community.
Elizabeth: [00:29:07] Yes, in the U.S.
Hakeem: [00:29:08] Yeah, that is very interesting. I don't know the reasons for it. I have my ideas. I can definitely say that we don't have enough products. Black owned companies, I know a few, but they are not many, of course like always, minorities are not well represented in startups in general. I mean, we are not saying, no, we are a business. That veggie victory is a business. So if we sell in the US and of course, there are Nigerians there, or other Africans or Caribbeans or African Americans. Somebody also who was a Caucasian, and he made a Philly steak and with that, he said, it's perfect, it's amazing.
Elizabeth: [00:29:46] That's amazing. So what's next? Where are you guys going?
Hakeem: [00:29:50] Yeah. So innovation is, of course, it's super important. So this one has wheat and we are producing some wheat in Nigeria, but not enough, and also because our farmers cannot compete with European subsidized or American subsidized farmers. So wheat, we have to import it. So we definitely would like to have a more locally sourced raw material and there are many, you know, there are cashews, not the nuts, but the apples. Actually, you can make something out of that, but we need to get the texture right. If you don't convince the consumer well, he won't buy your product no matter how poor he is. You know, it doesn't work like, Oh, you are poor buy soy chunks. The meat is for the richer people. In Africa, nobody will tell you they are poor, they all look like they're very inspirational people. They rather eat only a quarter of a piece of meat than a soy chunk, if it doesn't taste well. So yeah, we have to deal with consumers, and which is good. Yeah. So we need more. Definitely, we have to come up with products. Definitely different flavors, also kind of fish substitute, which is still a big thing. So a lot will come. We are a product company, so innovation is what will keep us ahead. At some point we will have a competition, I'm sure.
Elizabeth: [00:31:15] Yeah. Since 2013, when you opened the restaurant, have you noticed change like across the board? In just terms of interest and people really wanting to focus on health and veganism, has it picked up?
Hakeem: [00:31:28] The health message is very, very strong and I think the pandemic was another booster because it literally showed people that if your health is not fine, your chips are going down fast. The thing is, once you're unhealthy in this kind of country, it's a big problem because you can't afford it. The public health care is in disarray. Where before there was a general hospital. They have one dialysis machine. I think in the whole country we have like 100 ventilators. You don't want to get on a ventilator with corona. You basically have to be a millionaire to get on a ventilator here. It's unrealistic. People know that once you are sick, it's a death sentence. It ruins your family finances. People earn a hundred dollars a month. What are you going to do with it, spend it on blood pressure pills? So you better be healthy and they know that food is a big thing there and they know it. I scare people. I don't have a problem with that. The kind of frozen chicken that we have here is coming from China that was killed two years ago. It's put in for formalin, it's mummified and then they're selling it here because they want cheap meat or the rotten meat from Europe that is then being shipped here, pumped up with all the chemicals they're using. Chemicals are also already here in the farming and chickens in particular, they are cooking the meat with paracetamol, you know, because then it cooks faster. Oh, it's like a chemical cocktail.
Elizabeth: [00:33:09] It's like they can't stop coming up with just like the most horrific things.
Hakeem: [00:33:16] Wrinkling the meat and the markets with insecticides, and then you're eating that. I think we have the arguments on our side and people are really getting and you ask that the health message is becoming stronger and stronger, you know? Luckily, we all also have some role models, ‘Beyonce’ going on a vegan diet and they notice it, with social media. Kevin Hart and all that. Lewis Hamilton, Lionel Messi, and now the thing is, they need the product and they need a bit of guidance. But that's similar. If you live in the Midwest and you say, suddenly say I'm vegan, you don't have that support. It's hard, you know,
Elizabeth: [00:34:05] It's hard.
Hakeem: [00:34:06] So yeah, we are not yet far from being mainstream. We are just starting. And that's, I think, our unique story that we are the first plant based food tech company, as we call ourselves in Nigeria and even in Africa. There's one meat substitute company in South Africa, but they're very catering for the wide demographic, not really going into Africa as we all know it.
Elizabeth: [00:34:26] Yeah, it's incredible and it's exciting and it'll change lives.
Hakeem: [00:34:31] For us it's really rewarding because you can actually know that you can change. I don't want to sound dramatic, but you know that you're making an impact. You know, somebody that has blood pressure, we all know with a plant based diet, you can reverse it, and it can literally save that person's life. Even in America, but you have at least you have all the medicine there. Then for the future of this continent, if we start animal farming, I think, then we have lost it completely. We can't even afford it. Anyway, that's the good news. We can't even afford it. Either way, I think it's a no brainer. We are getting going in the right direction, but it takes time. There are not many people to do that and it's huge, yeah, the finances. I mean, we are lucky that we are getting some attention now, but I mean, compared to the vegan industry, abroad is still very sketchy here.
Elizabeth: [00:35:27] I know. But you know what? You and I both remember what it was like in Germany back in the day and look at it now.
Hakeem: [00:35:33] I always say it's just great to be in this community because everyone I meet, it's amazing because you can relate. It's positive.
Elizabeth: [00:35:40] It really is.
Hakeem: [00:35:48] It unites us. We all realize we are in the same boat because the thing is, if you want to save animals, it does not make logical sense. If you want to save animals in the US, or in Germany, because if you say, ok, Africa is fine. But if your passion is animals, you all have to fight for animal rights around the planet. You can't just fight for animal rights in Germany. It doesn't make sense.
Elizabeth: [00:36:12] Hakeem, thank you so much for today. This is awesome. I'm so excited.
Hakeem: [00:36:14] Thank you Beth.
Elizabeth: [00:36:28] To learn more about Hakeem and Veggie Victory, go to our website Species Unite.com there are links to everything. We are on Facebook and Instagram, @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, please subscribe, rate and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps people to find the show. If you'd like to support the podcast, we would greatly appreciate it. Go to our website, SpeciesUnite.com and click Donate. I'd like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pierce, Amy Jones, Paul Healey, Santana Polk and Anna Conner, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening and have a wonderful day.
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