S5: E13: Daniel Fox: Feel The Wild
“Scientists have made this study and experiment… people would actually feel bad for the butterfly because now it's ready to come out of its cocoon, so they would open the cocoon for it. They would slice it open to make it easier for the butterfly to come out. And it turns out that even doing that weakens the butterfly because that effort of breaking the cocoon and spreading your wings is a necessity to become more resilient and stronger in life”
– Daniel Fox
Daniel Fox is a photographer, solo wilderness explorer, author of Feel the Wild, founder of Feel the Wild VR, a LEXUS ambassador, SANDISK Extreme Team member, SENNHEISER Artist, publisher of the Proust Nature Questionnaire, and founder/mentor of WILD.ECO, a non-profit with a mission to foster resilient, empowered, adaptable, curious, and empathetic students of life, using Nature as a framework for personal transformation.
Daniel and I spoke early in the pandemic – mostly about nature: how it heals, how it teaches, and why we so desperately need it right now.
On this very last day of this very strange year, this episode serves as a reminder to connect. To connect with ourselves, with one another, and with nature. Because in nature we can heal, start over, and remember who we are and why we’re here. In nature, we can remember that we are all one.
Visit Daniel’s Website
Read Feel the Wild
Follow Daniel on Instagram
Transcript:
Daniel: [00:00:00] Scientists have made the study and the experiment that people would actually feel bad for the butterfly because now it's ready to come out of its cocoon, so they would open the cocoon for it. They would slice it open to make it easier for the butterfly to come out. It turns out that even doing that it weakens the butterfly after, because that effort of breaking the cocoon and spreading your wings is the necessity to become more resilient and stronger in life.
Elizabeth: [00:00:40] Hi, I'm Elizabeth Novogratz. This is Species Unite. We have a favor to ask if you like today's episode and you have a spare minute, could you please rate and review Species Unite on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts? It really helps people to find the show. This conversation is with Daniel Fox. Daniel is a photographer, a solo wilderness explorer and the author of Feel the Wild, an intimate and powerful story about nature and our relationship with it. Daniel and I spoke early in the pandemic mostly about nature, how it heals, how it teaches, and why we so desperately need it right now. On this very last day of this very strange year this episode serves as a reminder to connect with ourselves, with one another and with nature. I think it's how we heal, how we start over and how we remember who we are and why we're here. Happy New Year. Let's hope it's a better one. Hi, Daniel, how are you doing?
Daniel: [00:02:03] Excellent, excellent. And you?
Elizabeth: [00:02:04] Really good. So, you do many things, you write, you speak, you think about nature and wildlife, you're a wildlife photographer and you go on these incredible expeditions. When you meet somebody and they ask, what do you do? How do you answer it?
Daniel: [00:02:21] It's kind of a struggle that I've had for quite some time, a struggle that actually got resolved lately, when my wife and I were on a car ride driving back from Napa. We had dinner with friends and the host was struggling trying to introduce me saying, you're this and you're that. How am I supposed to be introducing you? As I began to explain all the different things that I was doing, my wife kind of connected the dots and she's like, Well, it sounds to me like you're an ape. You're an artist and author, photographer, philosopher and an explorer and entrepreneur and really then the light went on and I'm like, Yes, I'm an ape. Not only figuratively, but literally. I'm the descendant of my lineage.
Elizabeth: [00:03:16] You grew up moving all the time, but felt very connected to nature. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Daniel: [00:03:24] Yes. So, by the age of 12, we had already moved 10 times, and I grew up constantly having to reinvent my surroundings, the world around me. I mean, I would make friends and then I would lose friends. Houses became kind of momentarily backdrops for my life, but everywhere that we moved, there was always a local park or a local forest or a place where, you know, ashore and nature became my constant, my anchor. It was the place where I went to and things that didn't kind of change. It was my stability throughout the rest of my life. That sense of connectedness and greenness have always stayed with me. It's where I go back to make some sense of the world. It's where I go back to resource myself. It's where I go back to kind of reconnect with everything.
Elizabeth: [00:04:23] So, when you really reconnected later and really just turned your whole life upside down, in a sense, it was like you were kind of going home in a way?
Daniel: [00:04:31] There's a simplicity in the wilderness because I tend not to make a difference between nature and life. I mean, life is nature, and nature is life, they are two of the same things. Now wilderness is different, a place, a destination. But there's a simplicity. Nothing is pretty, nothing is ugly and nothing is good, nothing is bad. Everything has a reason. Whether you like it or you don't, you need to also become extremely simple. You need shelter, you need to eat, you need to protect yourself. You start to realize that every single species is caught in that, in that survival and everything is connected. We're all trying to survive in our own ways. So, every time that I would be in the human world and things seemed to be too complicated or too overwhelming, then I would head back to the wilderness, to nature and be reminded of the simplicity of life.
Elizabeth: [00:05:30] Then you kind of be refuelled and reconnected. So, what happened? You were working in New York and was there a moment that something happened that you said, I can't do this anymore?
Daniel: [00:05:43] There was. I have a side of me that loves big cities. I mean, I've lived in New York City and L.A., San Francisco, Buenos Aires, Munich, Montreal, and now I'm in Vancouver. I've always loved the creative buzz, the depth of culture. There's something that is absolutely incredible about big cities. However, I also have this side of me that, it's perfectly fine in a shack, by the ocean, just by myself. So when I grew up, my teenage dreams were to sail the world and study whales and work with animals. I remember the first time I applied to university was at UBC, University of British Columbia, and I wanted to be a marine biologist, but I didn't make it, so I ended up in marketing business. That slowly led me to New York City. I lived in New York City for seven years. It's just that I wasn't motivated. The chase was more interesting than what I got in the end. The fast forward makes a long story short. I found myself at a place where I was at the end of a really bad relationship, and I reassessed everything that I had and how I wanted to move forward. There was literally nothing that I wanted to keep. I remember asking myself the question like, would I rather continue in New York City or would I prefer being in a little cabin in the middle of nowhere? The answer back then was a cabin in the middle of nowhere. This is when I basically sold everything and I took out a world map and I put my finger on New York and I went as far south as possible and ended up in Argentina. This is where I went for six months and this is where I reconnected myself with what I want to do and what I do now. I started to photograph and to write and this really resonated with people.
Elizabeth: [00:07:54] You had a moment there, right in Argentina that made you really realize this is my life now.
Daniel: [00:08:01] Yeah, I was on a beach and there was just this moment of awakening where I took this breath and it just kind of opened something. That moment on the beach where it was like waking up again, you know, coming to this world, but now you're aware of it.
Elizabeth: [00:08:23] See, I think those kinds of moments are the moments that really tell us who we are or where we should be or could be or how we could be, or who we want to be in the world. I think it's a human experience, but the tricky thing is it's very easy to not give them credit and just keep doing what you're doing. So giving that moment, the credit, I'm sure is part of what led you to this incredible existence that you live now, where taking the moment very seriously, you thought this is my path.
Daniel: [00:08:57] Life is always trying to send you these insights, these messages. But when we're constantly chasing our own tails, when we're constantly banging ourselves into noise. Even if these messages and insights are there, or even if these moments of these AHA moments are there, you'll never be able to hear them or to see them because you're, you're constantly overwhelmed by everything else. So you really need to create that space. I mean, there's a story that I like in the mentorship that I do in the presentations that I make about transformation, and I make the parallel with the butterfly, how we tell each other that we have this capacity to be our own butterfly and soar and spread our wings. But we forget that before becoming that butterfly, the caterpillar has to really isolate itself. It has to consciously create a cocoon around itself so that it can transform. That is so important because otherwise there's no transformation. You are always going to be running after something chasing, you know, chasing something, so you need to create those boundaries.
Elizabeth: [00:10:13] Well, it's hard work. So I think it's an easy thing to want to avoid.
Daniel: [00:10:18] Absolutely. I mean, transformation is not something that we want. It's something that's imposed on us. Change is not something that we go after. I mean, for the vast majority of people, it's just something that it's inevitable, things will change. But what makes us great as a human species is our capacity to adapt, to learn from our mistakes. Well, life is a messy process. There's a lot of disruption and tension involved.
Elizabeth: [00:10:49] So your six months in Argentina then, was that like your cocoon?
Daniel: [00:10:53] I would say that the transformation had started a while ago. So Argentina was the tipping point where finally I accepted my path, my direction, but there was still a lot of work to be done. This is, you know, if you make the parallel again with the butterfly. In fact, scientists have made the study, and the experiment like people would actually feel bad for the butterfly because now it's ready to come out of its cocoon. So they would open the cocoon for it. They would slice it open to make it easier for the butterfly to come out. It turns out that even doing that weakens the butterfly after that, because that effort of breaking the cocoon and spreading your wings is the necessity to become more resilient and stronger, you know, in life. So when I got to Argentina and I got reborn again, there was an entire world around me that I needed to change. It's not because my brain had accepted the new direction that everything the momentum that I was carrying with me knew exactly where to go. I really had to stop that momentum and start again into the direction that I want to go.
Elizabeth: [00:12:17] Was this your first big solo adventure expedition?
Daniel: [00:12:22] It was a disaster. I had this ridiculous idea of kayaking my way around the world, and I guess the size and the grand scale of the plan just represents how far down I'd come. It was just for me, it was the upswing of the place that I was in, but I was able to get sponsorship. I guess this is where my marketing background and business savvy came in. I was able to get a kayak and I think back then it was twenty five thousand dollars worth of equipment. I got to Argentina and I left Mar del Plata, which is a town on the Atlantic coast of Argentina. I was so ill prepared, it was the worst. I got into this kayak and I could barely float because I had too much equipment. There were these people I got to know when I was over there and they were all at the marina, wishing me goodbye. I was in my head and I was freaking out because I knew that any moment I could actually capsize and I would look ridiculous. So, I'm paddling out of the marina thinking, just please, please, please don't capsize. I'm paddling out and I'm running this jetty, which usually there will always have these humongous waves. Finally, make it across and I start paddling. I covered in three days the amount of distance that I had planned in one day. I was barely making any progress. I injured my wrist. Nothing was working the way that I wanted. The kayak that I had, it was not really the right kayak for these kinds of waters. After three days, I reached my limit and I landed on this tourist beach and I walked straight into a hotel. I checked in and I’m thinking, this is not going to work. I have to reassess everything. So I rented this small car, put the kayak on the top and I drove 12 hours to Valdes Peninsula. This is where I then stayed for six months and really reconnected with what I want to do.
Elizabeth: [00:14:57] What did you do in those six months?
Daniel: [00:14:59] I kayaked, photographed, met people, and it's really with the people there that I also discovered this place of Argentina, this is one thing that has become part of my creative process and part of the ways that I capture these places. It would be arrogant for me to think that I can truly capture the spirit of these locations by being a visitor. My first step is always to connect with people, to start relationships with friends. It's through them after that, that I get to experience these locations.
Elizabeth: [00:15:44] So, you were already a photographer at that point when you started?
Daniel: [00:15:48] Photography was more of a hobby for me, I’m not a professional photographer. The arrival of digital photography definitely helped me craft my photography and create my own signature of what I want to do.
Elizabeth: [00:16:03] All of your photography. It really has this power where it makes you feel very connected and isolated at the same time, like the bigness of the world and connected to the world is how I felt looking through it.
Daniel: [00:16:20] Thank you.
Elizabeth: [00:16:21] One thing that really interests me too. In your book, talking about photographing wildlife, I just thought this was awesome and I want to hear more about it. I'll read this paragraph from there that says, when I photograph wildlife, I don't hide from them. I want them to see me through my photos. I seek to create totems. My goal is to capture their inner spirit, their energy. I want to acknowledge and celebrate a creature that has successfully carved itself a niche in the tree of evolution. I want to connect with them in the same manner that a student looks up to his teacher. I want to look into their eyes and I want them to look into mine. There is so much for me, for us, to learn from them. When I pressed the shutter, it wasn't me, it wasn’t human and it wasn’t a wild animal. Rather, there are us, two creatures sharing this space, breathing the same air, doing what we can to survive and protect the ones that we care and love. Ok, it's one hundred percent beautiful, but how do you do this? Because that whole incident, which I want to hear about as well with the bear that you talk about in your book. It's almost like you wait and kind of let them know, Hey, I'm here and we're going to connect before I start. Do many people do this? Talk to me about this a little bit, because this is fascinating and incredible.
Daniel: [00:17:45] It's just mind blowing when I go on there. I go out there with the understanding and the knowledge that the world is bigger than me. I'm just another species bounded by time, mortality and the limit of my body and everything else. There is a certain humility and acceptance vulnerability that I go out with, and when I photograph animals, I want to honor their own survival success. I want the camera out to be more of a witness rather than the purpose. It's catching an informal bond between two species. It doesn't happen all the time. The vast majority of the times when I make myself visible and present animals will just go away or leave. But by making myself visible and by making them aware of what I'm doing and why I'm there, then the moment is more of a relationship of participation. For me, the eyes are really important. I want that presence. I want those eyes, I want that power, that depth of spirit. I think that there's an inherent curiosity in all organisms in the world, even more so within mammals, at the beginning there's always this informal dance. There's so much information because we want to assess our surroundings. We want to know what is the threat and what is not a threat. The voice is a powerful tool and this is one of the reasons why when I'm out there, I always talk to myself and I always talk to the animals. Not that I feel that they understand it, but that I'm aware that my voice is carrying my state of mind or my intentions to the world.
Elizabeth: [00:19:53] Because this is how you've photographed so many animals, have you had experiences where animals were really curious and kind of incredible or totally surprising?
Daniel: [00:20:06] Oh yeah, so there was one. I was on Antelope Island in Utah, and I had gotten special permission from the warden to basically go off the beaten path and go and hang out with the Buffaloes and the Bisons. What I would usually do is I would identify a group of males, it's usual to hang out together, two, three or four of them, and I would kind of gauge the direction that they're taking. Then I would go way ahead and I would sit in the grass and I would wait. I would wait to see if they come my way or if they don't. I remember this giant one coming and seeing me from really far away. He came slowly zig zagging and I would look up, and then he ended up actually passing by. I don't know if it was ten feet away from me, 10 or 15 feet away from me. I'm sitting on the ground. My eyes are the same height as his eyes. On top of that, he was wearing this little branch that he had picked up while eating, it looks like he's wearing a crown. I had this moment of, I felt like this was a king. This ancestral king, who had ruled the Plains, was just passing in front. There was a death of time in its eyes, it's just so profound. I've had that with seals, I've had that with sea lions and with bears. The moments where, for me, there was something bigger than just the physicality of the animal.
Elizabeth: [00:21:52] Do you ever get scared?
Daniel: [00:21:54] I mean, yes. Yeah, it's normal to be scared. When you're scared, then you have a choice and you have to understand the dynamics of those fears and why they show up. It's outside of your comfort zone. It's the unknown, the uncertainty. I wrote recently about what's happening, the difference between fears and dangers. Dangers are real, dangers are something that you can analyze, you can study, you can find solutions to. But fear is an interpretation of those dangers, and our interpretations are rooted in our own assessment of what is a comfort zone and what is not. Our own reaction to dangers is as important as to the danger itself because the world feeds on that. This is one of the reasons why I don't carry firearms when I go out. If the world around you senses that you're coming armed to the teeth, then the reaction was just, well, you're a threat and I'm going to arm myself to the teeth. But if you go and you recognize that moment where you think, OK, I sense myself starting to be afraid, but let's take a deep breath. Let's just relax for two seconds. I know I have the capacity to get out of this, or I know I have the kit, but this is not as bad as it is. Let's just take a deep breath.
Elizabeth: [00:23:31] Well, and you're still here, so.
Daniel: [00:23:32] Yes. There's a big difference. I mean, I'm not an adrenaline junkie, this is a reality. Also when you do solo wilderness expeditions, you don't have the luxury to really push the boundaries as if you were with other people. There's a lack of proving to each other when you're with other people. But there's also that if something happens, there's no one, you're on your own, so you kind of have to be careful of what you do. So I don't go after risks just for the fun of it. I find myself in a situation that I think people see is extremely risky. But again, it's a perception. When I was in Argentina, I remember being on the Great Plains flooded plains of Corrientes, which is this province in Argentina. I was with gauchos, the equivalent of cowboys here. There were snakes and alligators everywhere. For us we just felt that death was everywhere. That was their playground, they really loved it. They were the ones telling us that we were the crazy ones because we lived in cities with cars zooming by and accidents left and right and overwhelmed by millions of people, that was outside of their comfort zone. So from their perspective, that was dangerous. Two different perspectives, two different views and yet there was a reality of dangers, but the fears are totally different.
Elizabeth: [00:25:14] Just to get back to the animal encounters for a minute, you also talk about equality in your book and how with animals, they should be respected for their own sake. That also made me very happy because I don't think that's something people talk about enough. I think a lot of humans tend to talk about animals in how important they are to us, or why we need them or why we like them, or but not in the sense that they're important for their own sake. They're important amongst themselves.
Daniel: [00:25:48] There's a righteousness in our attitude towards nature. I mean, even conservation, if there is one big failure of the conservation movement, has been to approach nature in a righteous way, we have to save nature. The perspective that we have towards saving the planet right now is nothing different than us saving the animals. It's us being at the top of this. It's our duty to manage and save the poor little animals who need our protection to survive. If we're not there to save it, then life will cease to exist. It doesn't work like that. We are a product of our environment. Do we want to live in a world of complexities and richness where other species live and thrive? Or do we want to live in a sanitized and sterile environment? Every animal plays a role in this complex web of discoveries and hidden treasures and amazing things, and you cannot just take one out and say, well, this one is undesirable and I don't want it. Everybody is connected to so many different things.
Elizabeth: [00:27:10] In terms of saving the planet. One of the reasons I think that we've let the planet go on so many levels, is because so many people don't actually have a real connection to nature anymore, just not spending any time in it, but also not really allowing it.
Daniel: [00:27:27] This is one of the points that I often debate is that it's more about us, not about nature. Nature continues whether a volcano erupts tomorrow and blankets the entire Earth, whether a rock falls from the sky and destroys everything. Nature is not there, saying, Oh, you know, it's bad. It just kind of resets the game and continues, we're the ones realizing that we don't feel comfortable about the way things are moving forward. So the decision is not about do we want to save the planet? Do we want to save ourselves? Do we want to save a lifestyle that is part of something that is bigger? If you change that perspective, I personally think that it would make it more attractive for people. Everybody is trying to put food on a table. Everybody is trying to send their kids to school. Everybody wakes up in the morning and tries to do the right thing for their family, for themselves. So to be told that we're a bad species, that we're constantly bad. It's not inspiring. Nobody wants it. No one wants to be told constantly that they're bad people. We have to point the finger into the future and say, All right, now we have to reassess how we want to move forward. How do we build a future? This is what our society needs and culturally we're going through right now. We know that our relationship with the planet is broken. There's no denial about it, but we just don't know how to move forward because it forces us to reassess everything, to question everything that we now take for granted. But it inevitably happens. Change will be forced. Like right now what we're going through, it's been forced and it's been imposed on us. But we realize that we have this capacity, this resilience, to rise up when life pushes us down. This is for me, there's a beauty and fondness to these moments where you see the beauty of life, you see people coming together, you see the things that we thought were impossible becoming possible. That's nature, that's life.
Elizabeth: [00:29:45] Right now with the pandemic, people are really forced pretty much all over the planet, to not only look at their own lives because there's just so there's a lot more stillness happening. People are stuck and they're inside. All the distractions are kind of melting away because they're not available on a personal level, but also on a kind of planetary global level. How do you think of the pandemic as being part of this catalyst for change? Can you talk about that a little?
Daniel: [00:30:18] Oh, it's a definite catalyst. It's definite, there's no escape. What's going on is can we argue whether we are here because of the strength of the virus or the weakness of our society. But the truth is that we're here and you look back at history and history is full of those moments that were catalysts for transformation and that's the process of growth and evolution. I do believe that suffering pain, destruction, tension, disruption really are the incentive for transformation and growth because when you're happy, there's no incentive to move forward. You just want that actually to stay put and enjoy the moment. It's really when you're put outside of your comfort zone that you're forced to fix something. It's this uncertainty of life that brings a certain humility, and it reminds us of what it's important in the world.
Elizabeth: [00:31:26] And we're here now.
Daniel: [00:31:28] And we're here now. We had this point where there's going to be some amazing things coming out of that and there's going to be some awful things. We have soon to be eight billion people on the planet. You cannot have all these people at one table and everybody's going to agree. There's going to be amazing growth and transformation. There's going to be some losers. There's going to be some winners. This is even one issue that I have with climate change, the way that we're trying to fight it, is with this really static idea of what the world is supposed to look like. But the truth about climate change is that it's reshuffling the cards of power. Who has it? Who doesn't? There are certain people on the planet who really are welcoming climate change because it makes their lives better. So even if you have the capacity to rewind and say, Well, we need to go back to that moment there, certain people are going to say, no, because now they're starting to enjoy it, more than what they used to. I'm in Vancouver, on Vancouver Island, you have people now who have two or three harvests a year when they use only one harvest because the rise of temperatures really has been a benefit for them. So even if you have a machine to rewind time, they're going to say, No, no, no, no, no, no. I like that. But if we move the debate into, it's not about climate change, it's not about the rise of temperature, it's about our relationship with the planet, about how we do things, how we cannot just take and take and take. We need to have this relationship with the world.
Elizabeth: [00:33:24] For so many people, they don't have this relationship. How does that happen, that they just decide that they have a relationship?
Daniel: [00:33:31] It happens. Unfortunately, there's not an easy answer. It happens when the things that you took for granted are taken away from you. That's the unfortunate reality of becoming wiser as you get older. It's because of the things that you took for granted when you grew up. Suddenly you realize that it's not really easy and you're forced to reassess what matters in life. I have this theory, when we go to Europe, meals and food are so important and why work is not at the center of their lives, it's because there's not one inch or centimeter of Europe that hasn't been conquered, destroyed, lost over and over and over again for generations. When you have this recurrence of suffering, when the things that you took for granted are taken away from you and by players that are bigger than you, then what are you left with? You're left with bread and the community. If you have bread and the community, then you have hope. So you create rituals around them to remind yourself that the world could be falling apart around you. But if you're at the table with friends and families and if you have bread to break, then it's not that bad. This is one of the things that we're discovering right now that is great. We have our jobs. We had this idea of what the world was supposed to be and all conveniences. But now we realize that, I can have a certain meaning in my life with the simplicity and the little things that this pandemic has brought forward and we're forced to reassess what is important to us. I have started gardening. My wife is cooking a lot more. It's as if we're rediscovering the little simple things that make life so rich.
Elizabeth: [00:35:34] That is the gift in all of this, for so many.
Daniel: [00:35:37] Yeah, it really doesn't want to diminish the suffering, the pain and the losses that everybody is experiencing. I just had news of a friend who just lost her mother to COVID 19 yesterday, and it is tragic. There's no denying about it, but we have to understand what we're capable of doing through that pain and suffering, and this is what brings the light at the end of the tunnel. It makes us come together, not letting yourself go down a dark rabbit hole because of what is going on, doesn't mean that we're not taking this seriously. It's just we're seeing the potential for something better out of these dark moments. We're extremely resilient. Life is resilient, nature is resilient. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. We talk about failures in our career although failure is important. Failures are important in society, extremely important. They have their purpose. They're hard, but they have a purpose.
Elizabeth: [00:36:56] There's something pretty incredible about the entire world going through this same crisis at the same moment. It's not just one society, it's a society everywhere.
Daniel: [00:37:08] Yeah, India has got clean air now and they get to see the mountains and I have Mount Baker in the background. It doesn't take a lot for, in terms of the planet, for nature, to go back to a certain sense of natural rhythm. The birds continue to sing.
Elizabeth: [00:37:29] Daniel, this has been incredible and such good things to think about.
Daniel: [00:37:34] If there's one thing that I want people to take with them is that nature is this world of insights and teachings and lessons, it's a framework for personal and collective transformation. If we are able to look at nature, not as this place that needs to be managed and protected and safe, but rather as this world that is bigger than us. With these dynamics and lessons that we can apply to our own journey, then we'll find comfort in that journey. We're not going to try to fight it, but rather trying to experience it and grow from it.
Elizabeth: [00:38:16] How can people learn more about you and follow you?
Daniel: [00:38:19] My book is out, Feel the wild. You can go to my website, Daniel Fox CEO.com. I'm on social media, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram. I have my non-profit Wild.Eco, which we raise funds to send disadvantaged students for a month long Wilderness camps. We also have a mentorship that's a year long program where every month we have a theme and it's really to give people the tools to to experience life.
Elizabeth: [00:38:52] Good. Ok, Daniel, thank you very much.
Daniel: [00:38:59] Thank you.
Elizabeth: [00:39:02] To learn more about Daniel and all of the incredible things that he does go to our website, Species' Unite.com. We will have links to everything. We are on Facebook and Instagram @SpeciesUnite. If you have a spare minute and could do us a favor, please rate and review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people to find the show. If you'd like to support the podcast, we would greatly appreciate it. We are on Patreon, its Patreon.com/Species Unite. I would like to thank everyone at Species Unite, including Gary Knudsen, Natalie Martin, Caitlin Pearce, Amy Jones, Paul Healy, Santana Polky and Anna Connor, who wrote and performed today's music. Thank you for listening. Have a wonderful day!
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